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Rebuttal to Agniveer: Id Mubarak but for whom

بِسۡمِ ٱللهِ ٱلرَّحۡمَـٰنِ ٱلرَّحِيمِ

by Sulaiman Razvi

This is my rebuttal to a Arya Samaji who has made objections on Muslim festival Eid ul Azha popularly known as Bakird in the subcontinent. He has grossly misinterpreted many Quranic verses and has attempted to convince Muslims to give up meat consumption particularly animal slaughter during Eid ul Azha. I am not a scholar, so may Allah forgive me if I committ any error in explaining Quranic verses. Inshallah in this article I shall refute all objections raised by the Arya Samaji.

 

AGNIVEER WROTE:

2. And if a festival is called Cow-Id when the story is about sacrifice of a sheep, why not instead call it Grains-Id and simply distribute food-grains for needy ones? After all the resources spent on 1 kg of meat is able to produce more than 10 kg of food-grains. This shows that the person who started this festival was anyone but someone inspired from Allah. How can Allah be so wasteful and brutal?

MY RESPONSE:

Refer to my answer A) below, The grains which are used to feed the animals are not fit for humans to consume, So where is any wasting here, in fact, the grains which are inedible for humans are helpful in feeding the animals.

AGNIVEER WROTE:

3. Allah came in dream of Prophet Abraham to order him to kill his son. Does Allah come similarly in dreams of Muslims who butcher animals to celebrate Id? If not, why they try to imitate Abraham like a monkey? And if they still want to imitate Abraham, why not butcher their own children and wait for Allah to stop their hands if He wishes so? Why this double standard?

The reason is clear – All Muslims know clearly that no Allah ever appears in dreams or stands up to stop people from doing certain actions in such fantastic manners. So basically they are trying to fool Allah to make Him believe how much they love Him without giving an inch of sacrifice.

MY RESPONSE:

3) Allah did not come in the dream of Prophet Ibrahim A.S, Prophet Ibrahim first had a dream that he was sacrificing his son which was an inspiration from Allah SWT and he recognized it. Why would Muslim slaughter their children when Prophet Ibrahim A.S did not do and Allah did not command us to slaughter our children, The story of Prophet Ibrahim and Prophet Isameel is an example for Muslims to put our trust in Allah and to be patient.

Agnvieer states: ‘’ if they still want to imitate Abraham, why not butcher their own children’’

Its actually the Vedas which promotes human sacrifice, Vedas has story of Vedic god Varuna asking for sacrifice of a boy named Shunashepah, but this was not to test the father of Shunahshepa, Varuna was being serious when he asked for the slaughter of the child Shunahshepa, for more information one can read the article Purushamedha The Human Sacrifice. Veda also speaks of the sacrifice of Purusha (man),

Rig Veda 10.90.6 When Gods prepared the sacrifice with Purusa as their offering…

The Human sacrifice is called as Purushamedha, Agniveer will know about it when he starts reading ‘’His Beloved Book’’ and the Yajur Veda 24.24-30 verses, These verses talk about Sacrifices of many animals and birds.

AGNVIEER WROTE:

4. Muslim scholars across the world have denounced this story as a fake one. They rightly state that Allah can never come in anyone’s dream to ask him to kill his children. When Allah has himself prohibited murder, how come He act as a criminal by asking anyone to do so. Ideally, even if Allah came in dream to ask Abraham to kill his son, he should have said clearly to Allah that he cannot disobey Allah’s original orders. This would have been the real passing of test of Allah.

MY RESPONSE:

4) When the Qur’an and Hadiths clearly speak about the sacrifice then who can falsify this story? I would like to know who are the Muslims scholars across the world who have denounced this story. Muslims must follow each and every command of Allah even if they don’t like it because it is for our benefit, that’s the moral of this story. How would this be a sin when Prophet Abraham A.S did not slaughter his child, It would have been cruel IF Allah S.W.T had commanded Prophet Abraham A.S to carry on the slaughter of Prophet Ibrahim’s innocent son which Allah did not do.

AGNVIEER WROTE:

Further, when Allah already knows everything, why does He need to take crazy tests? After all He also knows the answer that the examinee will give. Why such a drama then?

MY RESPONSE:

This is a stupid point, the stories of Prophets are examples to the believers so is Prophet Ibrahim A.S’s story which tells us to put our total trust in Allah SWT and to follow each and every command of Allah,

25:58 And put Thy trust In Him who lives and dies not; and celebrate His praise; and Enough is He to be acquainted with the faults of His servants;-

If Ishwar knew future then why did he create his enemies?

Rig Veda 1.176.3 Within whose hands deposited all the Five Peoples’ treasures rest. Mark thou the man who injures us and kill him like the heavenly bolt.

Rig Veda 3.3016 A cry is beard from enemies most near us: against them send thy fiercest-flaming weapon. Rend them from under, crush them and subdue them. Slay, Maghavan, and make the fiends our booty.

So why did Ishwar made his enemy when he already knew that they will try to kill him and then Ishwar will command his Agents to rend, cut, burn, crush them, Isn’t Ishwar all-knowing? Why such Drama then?

AGNIVEER WROTE:

But the fake Quran available today creates a villain out of Allah. Allah Himself creates rule and then instigates His followers to break those rules. For example, He asked everyone to bow down to none other than Allah Himself. But then He ordered Satan to bow down to Adam. When Satan refused, He was punished by Allah. To read this tragedy in poetic form, please visit Shaitan Ka Dukhda.

MY RESPONSE:

There is no fake Qur’an or original Qur’an, Anti Muslims can only make such bogus claims, The Qur’an is preserved according to both Sunni and Shia scholars and all the Muslims have the same version of Qur’an, But there are many versions of Vedas available today and they differ a lot, for instance, read the article Textual Corruption of the Vedas.

This is a stupid claim too, Before the law given to Prophet Muhammad P.B.U.H, doing Sajdah to anyone was allowed, There were two kinds of prostrations Sajdah E Tazimi and Sajdah E Ibadat, Sajdah E Tazimi could be done to any person to pay him/her respect and honour him/her and Sajdah E Ibadat must only be done for Allah and this kind of Sajdah (i.e Sajdah e Ibadat) is worship, we read about Prophet Yusuf A.S’s family prostrating before him to honour him (Sajdah e Tazimi) In Surah e Yusuf 12:100, at that time it was allowed to prostrate anyone for honouring the person, and it is prohibited in the law of Prophet Muhammad PBUH to prostrate to anyone may it be Sajdah E Tazimi or Sajdah E Ibadat except for Allah and Muslims can prostrate only to Allah alone now, If Agnvieer does not know about the Sharia then he should not comment on Qur’an and how can he say that FIRST Allah ordered not to bow down to anyone except Allah? Because this law was given to Prophet Muhammad S.A.W and not to Prophet Adam A.S.

AGNIVEER WROTE:

Just think, if instead of killing the son, what should Abraham have done if Allah had asked him to rape his child? Should he have followed the order of Allah? Incidentally, such stories have opened a Pandora’s Box. Refer http://www.dnaindia.com/world/odd-news_father-marries-daughter-citing-divine-sanction_1134275

Hence it is proven that such fake stories do not exist in original Quran. Muslims should reject all such fake verses that denigrate Allah and Muhammad who is alleged to have compiled such illogical verses under inspiration of Allah.

MY RESPONSE:

https://web.archive.org/web/20111108010157im_/http:/truthabouthinduism.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/pervert.jpg?w=556&h=140
(Source)

He said ‘’sees THE SAME everywhere’’ and Agniveer talked about “raping the child”, Agniveer must have experienced sexual exploitation by his own father (not Niyog father) after all Vedas of Arya Samaj permits all sort of immoral and obscene acts. Vedas has references of the sun god raping his wife after assuming the form of a horse, Veda even has reference of Brahma raping his daughter. So followers of such book would definitely look for immorality in others as they have become accustomed to reading pornography in their texts. So such thing (citing divine inspiration) can be justified only in Hinduism, as Vedas also promote all sort of incest but doesn’t prohibit it even indirectly. A follower of such rapist religion will only talk about rapes where various Hindu scholars like Asaram, Virendra Dev Dixit, and Swami Om claimed to be avatars of Krishna to carry on rape of women.

AGNVIEER WROTE:

5. We provide two links of articles by eminent Muslim scholars who clearly proclaim that this is a fake story that insults Allah and hence should be rejected. They say that no such dream ever came and no such dream inspired by Allah can ever come. Whatever Abraham may have done was through his own hallucinations.

http://www.submission.org/Ismail.html

http://www.quran-islam.org/articles/abrahams_sacrifice_%28P1164%29.html

Summary conclusions of these articles are as follows:

– The story behind Bakr-Id is a fake one

– Allah can never ask anyone to do any evil act like killing one’s own innocent children

– Prophets are vulnerable to Satan’s attacks. Thus there is no guarantee that whatever Prophet Abraham or Prophet Muhammad is supposed to have stated, as per records of his followers who were not prophets, is not inspired from Satan.

– Allah never asked Abraham to even sacrifice a sheep or goat. There is no such mention in Quran.

MY RESPONSE:

5) Just because those sites are in favour of Agniveer he has converted those Qadiyanis into “MUSLIM SCHOLARS’’ now, Keep aside the Authentic Hadiths whoever rejected the fabricated Hadiths were regarded as ‘’Qadiyanis’’(This is the definition of “Qadiyani’s as given by Agniveer team)  by Agniveer team, and the links he provided belongs to the Submitters sect who don’t even believe in Sahih Hadiths, we can see how Agniveer changes his team’s stand to suit his vested interests.

As far as the links are concerned, they can be refuted easily just by quoting correct translation, I don’t agree with all the articles of Submitters sect. Their objection is ‘’ Allah can never ask anyone to do any evil act like killing one’s own innocent children’’, let’s read some Qur’anic verses to understand about it

37:102-113 And [one day,] when [the child] had become old enough to share in his [father’s] endeavours, the latter said: “O my dear son! I have seen in a dream that I should sacrifice thee: consider, then, what would be thy view!” [Ishmael] answered: “O my father! Do as thou art bidden: thou wilt find me, if God so wills, among those who are patient in adversity!” But as soon as the two had surrendered themselves to [what they thought to be] the will of God, and [Abraham] had laid him down on his face, We called out to him: “O Abraham, thou hast already fulfilled [the purpose of] that dreamvision!” Thus, verily, do We reward the doers of good: for, behold, all this was indeed a trial, clear in itself. And We ransomed him with a tremendous sacrifice, and left him thus to be remembered among later generations: “Peace be upon Abraham!” Thus do We reward the doers of good – for he was truly one of our believing servants And [in time] We gave him the glad tiding of Isaac, [who, too, would be] a prophet, one of the righteous; and We blessed him and Isaac: but among the offspring of these two there were [destined] to be both doers of good and such as would glaringly sin against themselves.

We can see Allah rewarded Hazrat Ibrahim and Hazrat Ismaeel for believing in the dream, if the dream was from Satan then why would Allah reward him for believing in the Satanic dream? ‘’ Thus, verily, do We reward the doers of good’’ Means Allah rewards the person who believes in him. And Allah rewarded Prophet Ibrahim for believing in the dream

According to all the commentaries and many Hadiths this dream was from Allah and not from Satan.

Imam Kathir states: `Ubayd bin Umayr said, “The dreams of the Prophets are revelation,” then he recited this Ayah: (he said: “O my son! I have seen in a dream that I am slaughtering you. So look what you think!”)[…] Or it was said that “submitted themselves” means that they submitted and followed the command of Allah; Ibrahim obeyed the command of Allah and Ismail obeyed Allah and his father […]We called out to him: “O Ibrahim! You have fulfilled the dream!” means, `the purpose of your dream has been fulfilled by your laying down your son to sacrifice him.’ As-Suddi and others said that; he passed the knife over Ismail’s neck, but it did not cut him at all, because a sheet of copper was placed between them. Ibrahim was called at that point, and it was said: (You have fulfilled the dream!) Allah says; Verily, thus do We reward the doers of good. means, `this is how We deal with those who obey Us in things that are difficult for them; We make for them a way out.’ As Allah says: And whosoever has Taqwa of Allah, He will make a way for him to get out (from every difficulty). And He will provide him from (sources) he never could imagine. And whosoever puts his trust in Allah, then He will suffice him. Verily, Allah will accomplish his purpose. Indeed Allah has set a measure for all things. (65:2-3) On the basis of this Ayah and this story, some of the scholars of Usul have stated that it is valid for a ruling to be abrogated before anyone is able to act upon it — unlike some of the Mutazilah. The evidence for this is obvious, because Allah commanded Ibrahim, peace be upon him, to sacrifice his son, then He abrogated that and pointed out the ransom. The purpose of His command had been primarily to reward His close Friend for his patience and resolve in sacrificing his son. Allah says: Verily, that indeed was a manifest trial. meaning, it was clearly a test when he was commanded to sacrifice his son, so, he hastened to do it, in submission to the command of Allah and in obedience to Him. Allah said: And of Ibrahim who fulfilled all that. (53:37) and, And We ransomed him with a great sacrifice.

Now it’s very clear that the command to sacrifice his son was a revelation from Allah and the dreams of Prophets are revelation from Allah and not from Satan, concerning whether the animal sacrifice is mentioned in the Qur’an or not, Surah al Baqarah 2:196 talks about sacrificing the cattle. As far as the ‘’Scholars’’ are concerned let me quote one passage from the most renowned Hindu scholar Swami Vivekananda’s view on meat consumption,

“You will be astonished if I tell you that, according to old ceremonials, he is not a good Hindu, who does not eat beef. On certain occasions he must sacrifice a bull and eat it.[1]

AGNIVEER WROTE:

6. If we look into real Quran, it very clearly advocates vegetarianism and condemns those who kill innocent creatures. That is why a large number of progressive Muslims are turning vegetarian today. Please visit http://islamveg.com for one of the largest vegetarian groups of world.

It is not their meat nor their blood, that reaches Allah: it is your piety that reaches Him: He has thus made them subject to you, that ye may glorify Allah for His Guidance to you and proclaim the good news to all who do right. (Quran 22.37)

“There is not an animal in the earth, nor a flying creature flying on two wings, but they are peoples like unto you. We have neglected nothing in the Book (of Our decrees). Then unto their Lord they will be gathered.” (Quran 6:38)

http://islamveg.com/fatwas.asp  gives a list of fatwas favoring vegetarianism

This clearly shows that Allah does not ask for animal-killing. Wherever animal-sacrifice is mentioned, it simply means using animals for good purpose and caring for them.

And if that not be the case, it is better to reject false verses in name of Supreme than follow brutality blindly.

MY RESPONSE:

Ibn Abbas states on the explanation of verse 22:37: (Their flesh and their blood reach not Allah) because in the pre-Islamic time they used to splash the blood of sacrifices on the walls of the Holy House and sully themselves with this blood and so Allah forbade them from doing so; it is also said that this means: Allah does not accept their flesh or blood, (but the devotion from you reacheth Him) but He accepts your pure and sincere works. (Thus have We made them subject unto ye that you may magnify Allah that He hath guided you) as He guided you to His religion and wont. (And give good tidings to the good) to those who are good in their words and deeds; and it is said that the good means: the generous with their sacrifices.

Imam Suyuti states: [22:37] Neither their flesh nor their blood shall reach God, that is, neither of these shall be raised up to Him; rather it is your piety that shall reach Him, that is, it is your righteous action, performed purely for Him, together with [your] faith, that shall be raised up to Him. Thus has He disposed them for you, that you may magnify God for His guiding you, for His pointing out to you the [ritual] ceremonies of His religion and the rites of His pilgrimage. And give good tidings to the virtuous, namely, those who affirm the Oneness [of God].

And Yusuf Ali explains the reason of sacrifice

[C2810]. This is the true end of sacrifice, not propitiation of higher powers, for Allah is One, and He does not delight in flesh or blood (22:37), but a symbol of thanksgiving to Allah by sharing meat with fellow-men.

Islam is unlike the pagan religions which says that the food sacrificed for their Idols/God will go to heaven to their Gods as the Veda says

Rig Veda 3.27.1 IN ladle dropping oil your food goes in oblation up to heaven, Goes to the Gods in search of bliss

https://web.archive.org/web/20111108010157im_/http:/truthabouthinduism.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/rv-3-27-1.png?w=501&h=103

Rig Veda 10.80.4 …Agni hath made oblations rise to heaven: to every place are Agni’s laws extended.

https://web.archive.org/web/20111108010157im_/http:/truthabouthinduism.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/rv-10-80-42.png?w=554&h=116

Mahabharata Book 3, Section 207 “And in days of yore, O Brahmana, two thousand animals used to be killed every day in the kitchen of king Rantideva…’The sacred fire is fond of animal food,’ this saying has come down to us. And at sacrifices animals are invariably killed by regenerate Brahmanas, and these animals being purged of sin, by incantation of hymns, go to heaven. If, O Brahmana, the sacred fire had not been so fond of animal food in ancient times, it could never have become the food of any one. And in this matter of animal food, this rule has been laid down by Munis:–Whoever partakes of animal food after having first offered it duly and respectfully to the gods and the manes, is not polluted by the act. And such a man is not at all considered to have partaken of animal food…” Tr. K.M. Ganguli

Rig Veda 1.163.12-13 “The strong Steed hath come forward to the slaughter, pondering with a mind directed God-ward. The goat who is his kin is led before him the sages and the singers follow after. The Steed is come unto the noblest mansion, is come unto his Father and his Mother. This day shall he approach the Gods, most welcome: then he declares good gifts to him who offers.” Tr. Ralph T.H. Griffith

By their own logic, shouldn’t the Hinduvadis butcher themselves as a shortcut way to Heaven? So in the context, it means it’s our righteousness, our sincere work reaches him, it’s our pure intention that reaches him, but not the blood or meat as other pagan religions say because Allah does not need them.

Islam does speak about animal rights, Islam says we should not kill them without any reason except for eating their meat, the Qur’an allows us to eat some animals

[5:1] O ye who believe! fulfil (all) obligations. lawful unto you (for food) are all four-footed animals, with the exceptions named: but animals of the chase are forbidden while ye are In the sacred precincts or In pilgrim garb: for Allah doth command according to His will and plan.

[2:173] He only prohibits for you the eating of animals that die of themselves (without human interference), blood, the meat of pigs, and animals dedicated to other than GOD. If one is forced (to eat these), without being malicious or deliberate, he incurs no sin. GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful.

[16:5] And cattle He has created for you (men): from them ye derive warmth, and numerous benefits, and of their (meat) ye eat.

Many verses allow us to eat four-footed cattle. Look at the hypocrisy of Agniveer, according to him, verses which are in his favour must be accepted and which are not in his favour must be rejected. There are many sites created by non-Muslims Islamophobes by pretending to be Muslims, there are also some sites that indirectly permit pork. All the opinions and Fatwas that site has does not prohibit Muslims from eating meat, they only say a Muslim can be a good vegetarian too, that does not mean he should avoid meat, the argument here is not about eating beef or not, but it’s about stopping Muslims from eating all meats and forcing us to embrace their tradition. The Qur’an says

[5:88] And eat from the good and lawful things that GOD has provided for you. You shall reverence GOD, in whom you are believers.

[2:168] O people, eat from the earth’s products all that is lawful and good, and do not follow the steps of Satan; he is your most ardent enemy.

So we should not avoid eating meat because Allah has made it lawful for us.

Sayyidina Ibn Abbas (RA) reported that a man came to the Prophet (SAW) and said, O Messenger of Allah (SAW), when I consume meat, I long for women and am sexually excited very much. So I have forbidden myself meat.” So, Allah, the Exalted, revealed: “O you who believe! Forbid not the wholesome things which Allah has made lawful for you, and do not transgress. Surely Allah loves not the transgressors. And eat of that which Allah has provided you as lawful and wholesome.” (5: 87-88) [Sunan Al Tirmidhi 3085]

Even if we avoid eating meat throughout the year then we can never avoid slaughtering animals at Id Al Zuha which Allah SWT has ordered to every Muslim to celebrate that festival and so-called Animal lovers wants us to avoid slaughtering animals even at Id.

AGNIVEER WROTE:

7. That is why during the period of Haj, no animal killing is allowed. Even killing of a lice in head is forbidden. No animal sacrifice takes place in Kaba. If indeed it were order of Allah, then Kaba should have been hottest destination for animal sacrifice.

MY RESPONSE:

Utterly false and baseless claim.

AGNIVEER WROTE:

Q: Ok, I understand that the story is fake and what we Muslims do on Bakr-Id is only a social ritual. But what is the harm in eating meat?

A: Several:

a. It is the most hazardous practice for environment and hygiene.

b. It is most inefficient form of food production and prime cause of hunger in world. Because the resources used to prepare meat of animals that gives 1 calorie of energy can grow more than 10 calories of vegetarian energy. In other words, if people turn vegetarian, more than ten times more people can feed their hunger. Also crops are renewable. One seed can grow many more plants. But animal, once killed, cannot come back and grow thousand other  animals. Taking this into consideration, vegetarian food can feed several hundred times more people than those fed by meat.

Since Muslim countries are among the poorest in the world, the ONLY relevant Zakat or charity for Muslims could be to turn vegetarian and feed their fellow brothers and sisters.

MY RESPONSE:

A) The most nutritious vegetable is Spinach and Broccoli. Spinach and Broccoli’s nutritional content is incomparable to meat nutritional value

US DRI for the Key Nutrients in Beef (Source)

Protein _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ 45 grams

Riboflavin (B2) _ _ _ _ _ _ _ 1.5 milligrams

Niacin _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ 17 milligrams

Vitamin B12 _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _6 micrograms

Iron _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _15 milligrams

Zinc _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _15 milligrams

Chicken breast, roasted (Source)
4.00 oz-wt
113.40 grams
223.40 calories
Nutrient Amount DV
(%)
Nutrient
Density
World’s Healthiest
Foods Rating
tryptophan 0.39 g 121.9 9.8 excellent
vitamin B3 (niacin) 14.41 mg 72.0 5.8 very good
protein 33.79 g 67.6 5.4 very good
selenium 28.01 mcg 40.0 3.2 good
vitamin B6 (pyridoxine) 0.64 mg 32.0 2.6 good
phosphorus 242.68 mg 24.3 2.0 good
Spinach, boiled (Source)
1.00 cup
180.00 grams
41.40 calories
Nutrient Amount DV
(%)
Nutrient
Density
World’s Healthiest
Foods Rating
manganese 1.68 mg 84.0 36.5 excellent
folate 262.80 mcg 65.7 28.6 excellent
magnesium 156.60 mg 39.1 17.0 excellent
iron 6.43 mg 35.7 15.5 excellent
protein 5.35 g 10.7 4.7 very good
zinc 1.37 mg 9.1 4.0 very good

 

Broccoli, steamed (Source)
1.00 cup
156.00 grams
43.68 calories
Nutrient Amount DV
(%)
Nutrient
Density
World’s Healthiest
Foods Rating
manganese 0.34 mg 17.0 7.0 very good
phosphorus 102.80 mg 10.3 4.2 very good
protein 4.66 g 9.3 3.8 very good
iron 1.37 mg 7.6 3.1 good
zinc 0.62 mg 4.1 1.7 good

You can see the nutrition value of Spinach was based on 180 Grams even though it’s incomparable to the nutrition value of meat, There is not a single veg food which has complete essential and non-essential amino acids but meat has all the essential and non-essential amino acids which are very important for the physical development of children. If children eat only vegetables then they will have to rely upon supplements for their development (as vegetables don’t have sufficient nutrients), and supplements are much more expensive than meat so how can poor people afford it? Meat is digestable. The non Vegetarians have an advantage, non vegetarians can consume both veg and non-veg food. I would like to quote a few lines of Dr. Naik which he said in his debate

Then I tell, that the Vegetarians, they should thank the Non-Vegetarians, You know why? because if we would not have slaughtered the animals for food, it would have lived for another five to ten years, and in that time it would have the vegetables of 7 to 8 peoples for a few years. So you should thank us for preventing the animals from eating your vegetable food. Further more, he gave the calculation from some record… from where I do not know, 1:14 the land that you graze, required for animal, is 14 times more than the land

 

 

AGNVIEER WROTE:

c. There are no health benefits associated with meat eating. On contrary, many diseases are nurtured and contracted solely through meat eating habits.

d. There is no evidence that meat-eating makes you stronger. Even the wrestling world champion these days, Sushil Kumar, is a vegetarian.

MY RESPONSE:

C) See my above response, meat has many health benefits and it’s recommended by Doctors http://agweb.okstate.edu/fourh/aitc/lessons/intermed/beef.pdf [Beef Is Good For You], I have seen many educated Brahmins eating chicken, mutton and even beef, If you are an Indian, you can ask any Brahman doctor about meat eating, (s)he will definitely recommend you eating meat, If we compare the diseases we get from food then veg food will top the list because there are a lot of harmful artificial, hybrid and adulterated Vegetables available in the Indian market today,

[http://www.deccanherald.com/content/17663/menace-adulteration.html] From fruits to vegetables, from milk to cold drinks, from ghee to edible oils, from wheat atta to common dal, from spices to sweets, the chances are that you are consuming ‘poison.’ Almost every eatable that you buy from the market is probably adulterated… Most of the vegetables you buy from the market are treated with a heavy dose of pesticides. Some have even been dipped in harmful chemical solutions to make them look fresh and attractive. Many vegetables are given a dose of artificial colour to suit your eyes.

Here are some links about the harmful adulterated vegetables available in India

http://www.indiastudychannel.com/resources/73074-Harmful-chemicals-fresh-looking-vegetables.aspx

http://www.ithappensinindia.com/artificial-colours-used-in-food-products-cause-many-health-problems-children-should-be-encouraged-to-take-food-made-with-fresh-fruits-and-vegetables/

http://www.indiastudychannel.com/resources/140342-Synthetic-milk-its-terror-problems-solutions.aspx

http://www.isrj.net/june/2011/Research_Paper_A_REVIEW_WHAT_WE_ARE_EATING.html

http://www.dherbs.com/articles/hybrid-and-genetically-engineered-foods-348.html

Every Indian is familiar with “Din ko Shakahari Raat ko Sharkhari’’ saga, so posting about vegetarian wrestlers is waste of time, There are over 95% of athletes who are non-veg, will that be a substantial proof to show meat makes you stronger? During the initial career of the Indian wrestler, Dalip Singh Rana (Great Khali) and his wife claimed to be pure vegetarians

“Rana says he is a vegetarian and abhors alcohol and tobacco.” http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7384920.stm

But later on, everyone came to know that he is a non Vegetarian who consumes over 50 eggs and 6 kilograms of meat per day, The so-called Vegetarians are trying their level best to show Vegetarianism as best and they are promoting Vegetarianism in India because of their culture. Doctors say that it is difficult for Vegetarians to maintain the athletic body because of the insufficient amount of nutrition found in vegetables. Also, go through this site http://www.vegetariansareevil.com/veganbody.html

AGNIVEER WROTE:

e. If meat-eating is justified, why should not even dead human beings, insane people, old people and small babies who are not productive in society be also eaten. Meat of Zakir Naik would perhaps be more beneficial than that of any goat, cow, camel or sheep. Zakir Naik says that Muslims are docile and non-violent because they eat non-violent and docile animals. By this logic itself, Muslims will become scholars if they eat meat of scholars like Zakir Naik and his IRF gang.

MY RESPONSE:

E) We are not Aghoris (Hindu saints of a Shaivite sect) to eat flesh of humans. Muslims cannot eat the meat of Humans, eating the meat of Human is prohibited, Agniveer stated ‘’ why should not even dead human beings, insane people, old people and small babies who are not productive in society be also eaten’’ let’s See what he said on eating Humans in point #2 below  ‘’Now you would argue that this means that even coma patients should be eaten up. This only shows cannibalistic attitude desperate for sensations on tongue’’

Agniveer is misquoting the lectures of Dr. Naik, Dr. Naik said ‘’ The diet does effect human beings, but these are arguments… do not effect–, And all the other arguments given, they do not carry weight actually.’’

Agniveer said ‘’ By this logic itself, Muslims will become scholars if they eat the meat of scholars like Zakir Naik and his IRF gang.’’

He denies that eating plants will change your behaviour as plants and eating animals would make you cruel, he also said ‘’ 4. Going further, even eating of peaceful humans should be justified because eating peaceful humans will make one loving and non-violent!’’ [Zakir Bhai defends Halal Meat]

I agree with him that the diet does not change the behaviour but it contradicts the view of Dayanand, As Agniveer is busy making his own sect, he always contradicts his Dayanand’s belief, Dayanand said

O. Should their flesh, i.e., (of the animals thus killed) be thrown away?

A.~ It would do no harm to the world whether it be thrown away, given to dogs or such other carnivorous animals, cremated or even eaten by some meat-eater. But if [the flesh of animals] eaten by man, it will tend to change his disposition and make him cruel. [Satyarth Prakash  pg 323]

 

Now you see to whose logic Agniveer was making fun of, Then why didn’t Arya Samajis ate Dayanand’s flesh? Wouldn’t that have made Arya Samajis so-called intelligent?

AGNIVEER WROTE:

f. Would you volunteer to be eaten yourself to feed others? If no, then why kill innocent animals who also feel the same pain, grief and love life the way you do. In fact, you may still be susceptible t0 stress and tensions, so you enjoy life less. So if animals can be killed, even you, your children, your parents, your friends, your neighbors and all insane and dead people should also be eaten away.

This is not a treatise on vegetarianism, so I request everyone to research this topic themselves. But the basic point is that killing of innocent animals in name of pleasing the Supreme Allah is a most foolish and insulting act towards Allah.

MY RESPONSE:

If eating meat is so cruel, then why Ishwar created carnivorous animals and even carnivorous plants? If eating meat is cruel then Ishwar is the biggest criminal because he created animals like Lion, Tiger, Leopard etc etc who can only digest Non-Veg food, they cannot survive on eating plants, so why did Ishwar create such beasts? Why  Ishwar created such food chain? Vedas and Dayanand has the answer to this question

O. Were all people to live on non-flesh diet, lions and other carnivorous animals would multiply in such large number that they will kill all such useful animals as cows. Your attempt to prevent their slaughter would come to nothing.

A.~ It is the business of the State to punish or even kill all those men and animals that are injurious (to the community).

Rig Veda 1.87.16 The fiend (Rakshas, Dasyus) who smears himself with flesh of cattle, with flesh of horses and of human bodies, Who steals the milch-cow’s milk away, O Agni,-tear off the heads of such with fiery fury.

Vedas and Dayanand commands to kill the person and animal who eats non veg food, What example will killing carnivorous animals lead? If Ishwar already knew everything, then why did he create the carnivorous animals and then ordered to kill them? As Agniveer has already said above ‘’ Further, when Allah already knows everything, why does He need to take crazy tests? After all He also knows the answer that the examinee will give. Why such a drama then?’’

That shows Ishwar is not all knowing, otherwise why would he create carnivorous animals and then order to kill them as per the concept of Maharishi Agniveer the founder of Agniveer Samaj.

Even the Vedas whose followers insult other people for being meat eater supports killing animals in Yajna (ritual) and many verses speak about eating meat.

Hindus Arguing about meat eating makes no sense, they should first blame their Ishwar for creating ants, lions, fox etc., which are all carnivorous. If Hindus don’t eat meat because plants feel PAIN, then why did they used cows for ploughing the field, horses for traveling and warfare? Don’t animals feel when they are used in the fields and for rides? Why do the Hindus milk the cows? Don’t cows feel pain while their parts are squeezed? If Hindus want to show so much kindness then why did they use the animals? We can see in the Vedas horses were used in the battle, and cows were used for ploughing

Rig Veda 1.14.6 Let the swift steeds who carry thee, thought-yoked and dropping holy oil, Bring the Gods to the Soma draught.

Rig Veda 1.23.15 And may he. duly bring to me the six bound closely, through these drops, As one who ploughs with steers brings corn.

Rig Veda 4.45.4 Happily work our steers and men, may the plough furrow happily…

AGNIVEER WROTE:

Q: But even plants have life. By that logic should we stop eating everything and die with hunger?

A: 1. No one, except the illiterate farmer in California whom Zakir Naik met (refer Zakir Naik on Halal Meat) ever proved that plants feel pain in same manner as animals.

MY RESPONSE:

1) I didn’t knew that Scientists and Doctors do farming in California

(Source) In the study of paranormal phenomena, plant perception or biocommunication in plant cells has come to mean a belief that plants are sentient, that they experience pain, pleasure, or emotions such as fear and affection, and that they have the ability to communicate with humans and other forms of life in a recognizable manner. While plants can communicate through chemical signals, and certainly have complex responses to stimuli, the belief that they possess advanced affective or cognitive abilities is not supported by scientific research. In contrast, those in the parapsychology studies community believe they do[…]One of the first to research the concept was the Indian scientist Sir Jagdish Chandra Bose, who began to conduct experiments on plants in the year 1900. He found that every plant and every part of a plant appeared to have a sensitive nervous system and responded to shock by a spasm just as an animal muscle does. One visitor to his laboratory, the vegetarian playwright George Bernard Shaw, was intensely disturbed upon witnessing a demonstration in which a cabbage had violent convulsions as it boiled to death.

Links about Plants feel pain and have feelings

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plant_intelligence

http://weeksmd.com/?p=2847

http://www.windows2universe.org/headline_universe/olpa/DesertAnnuals_23april10.html

http://www.atisma.com/spiritart/secret_language.htm

When we tell the Hindus that ‘’Plants feel pain’’ we get a reply ‘’they don’t have nervous system’’, If Plants don’t have nervous system then how can Mimosa Pudica plant closes it’s leaves when someone touches it? How can sun flower faces the Sun? It’s Due to the chemical reaction! Likewise Plants feel pain due to their chemical reaction http://www.gardenseeker.com/do_plants_have_feelings_.htm

There’s an organisation called Vegetables Rights Militant Movement who eats only seeds, nuts, and fruits when they naturally fall because Fruitarians says the plants ‘’Feel Pain’’ when you pluck the tomatoes, potatoes… from the plants and trees, If Agniveer really cares about pain then he should become a Fruitarian. And the Islamic way of slaughtering is not cruel, for information about it, you can visit http://www.mustaqim.co.uk/halal.htm Some researches which are available online like Animals Feel Pain of Religious Slaughter are done by vegetarian ideologists who want all people to be vegetarian so their research does not carry any weight.

AGNIVEER WROTE:

2. Plants are in inert unconscious state and do not feel pain like patients in coma. There is no soul in plant that knows that ‘I’ am the mango tree the way you feel that ‘I’ am Zakir Naik and I am an ‘Indian Mujahideen’. So there is no harm in eating plants. Now you would argue that this means that even coma patients should be eaten up. This only shows cannibalistic attitude desperate for sensations on tongue. But fact is that a plant will never revive into consciousness, but a coma patient can. Further, from health reasons, eating meat is stupidity. Thus there is no reason why anything except plants be eaten by taking life.

MY RESPONSE:

2) Why take an example of a coma patient? If you inject anesthesia to the animal and then cut the animal into many pieces the animal would feel no pain, Vegetarians main objection is ‘’we should not eat animals because they feel PAIN’’, For instance, if someone kills Agniveer’s parents after proper anaesthesia is administered, will Agniveer say to the judge ‘’your honour don’t punish him because he had injected Anaesthetic syringe to my parents so they didn’t FEEL PAIN’’ will he say that? Definitely not! Rather he will tell the judge in his Vedic style ‘’Oh your honour rend rend thou, rend into pieces the killer and punish the killer by tearing him, by burning him, by crushing him, by cutting him who have killed my parents’’. Their logic was not ‘’we should not eat animal because they feel pain’’ but their logic was actually ‘’we should not eat animals because they have life’’

Manu 4. 54. Let him not place (fire) under (a bed or the like); nor step over it, nor place it (when he sleeps) at the foot-(end of his bed); let him not torment living creatures.

Manu Smriti 8.295. But if he is stopped on his way by cattle or by (another) carriage, and he causes the death of any living being, a fine shall without doubt be imposed.

Atharva Veda 20.141.1 Come as home-guardians, saving us from foemen, guarding our  living creatures and our bodies,

Rig Veda 8.9.11 Come as home-guardians, saving us from foemen, guarding our living creatures and our bodies, Come to the house to give us seed and offspring,

Tirukural 324 What is the good way? It is the path that reflects on how it may avoid killing any creature.

Tirukural 321, 312 What is virtuous conduct? It is never destroying life, for killing leads to every other sin.

Mahabharat 13.115 “… Thou hast said so while discoursing formerly upon the ordinances in respect of Sraddhas. How can meat, however, be procured without slaying a living creature? …Those fierce persons who are engaged in slaughter of living creatures, never find protectors when they are in need. Such persons should always be molested and persecuted even as beasts of prey…

Manu 5.46 He who does not seek to cause the sufferings of bonds and death to living creatures, (but) desires the good of all (beings), obtains endless bliss.

Manu 5.48. Meat can never be obtained without injury to living creatures, and injury to sentient beings is detrimental to (the attainment of) heavenly bliss; let him therefore shun (the use of) meat.

O. Should their flesh, i.e., (of the animals thus killed) be thrown away?

A.~ … The use of all such food and drinks as are obtained through injuring or killing others or through theft, dishonesty, breach of faith, fraud or hypocrisy is forbidden, in other words they al come under the heading of forbidden articles of diet [Satyarth Prakash Ch 10 pg 323]

It is childish to say that there is no sin in eating meat, drinking wine and committing adultery, for meat cannot be had without killing animals, and it can never be right to hurt or kill animals without an offence. [Satyarth Prakash pg 342]

It’s clear from Maharishi Manu, Dayanand and Mahabharata on why we shouldn’t have meat, Because it includes the killing of living creatures/animals (but not because they feel pain), Today we know plants also have life, so when you cut the plants and vegetables they also DIE, in this way it also includes KILLING OF LIVING CREATURE. Thus The so called Shudh Shakahari (Pure Vegetarian) Hindus should start eating meat now.

My one question to all the Vegetarians ‘’Will you allow your family to be killed after they are injected Anaesthetic just because they didn’t feel pain?’’ if it’s all about PAIN, no one will allow that, everyone will say life is precious and life is life it’s very important, similarly, plants have a life too, when you don’t want others to stop eating meat then you should even stop bathing and inhaling because when you bath you kill bacteria when you inhale you kill the living creatures.

AGNIVEER WROTE:

3. Eating plants is a most environment friendly way of living and solves problem of hunger in world. So only plants should be eaten.

4. Even if you argue that plants may have soul that feels ‘I’ am mango-tree or carrot, even then it is better to eat plants and not animals. Because we know 100% that animals feel pain, have face and enjoy life the way we do. When they are butchered, they wriggle in pain in same manner that a Zakir Naik or Osama Bin Laden or Imam Bukhari or you would do. But for plants you are not 100% sure. In fact there is no evidence that they face the same pain as you do when butchered. So it’s better to eat plants even from a probabilistic standpoint.

After all if you know that eating plants is more healthy, safer, hygienic, environment friendly, poverty reducing and yet not brutal like animal killing, don’t you agree that only a fool will eat animals and make his or her own nature brutal.

MY RESPONSE:

Refer to my above point, and how is eating plants more healthy when meat is more nutritious than plants. And there are many artificial nuts, milk, curd, vegetables available in the Indian market today. The Hindu scriptures says to consume Panchgavya which includes 5 products of Cow they are urine, dung, milk, Ghee and Curd, and Ghee contains high fat which is very dangerous for health. Butter which is a vegetarian food has 82 grams of Fat and 740 calories based on 100 gm portions where as beef (which is a red meat) has 24 grams of fat and 310 calories and chicken has just 5 grams of Fat. If we compare the risks of food, the vegetarian food is more dangerous, Moreover the Vegetarians suffer from many Vitamin deficiencies like

vitamin B12, calcium, omega-3 fatty acids, vitamin D, iron, zinc, riboflavin (vitamin B2), and iodine, and poorly planned vegan diets may have particularly low intakes of vitamin B12 and calcium. Nonetheless, well-balanced vegetarian and vegan diets can meet all these nutrient requirements and are appropriate for all stages of the life cycle, including during pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, and adolescence SOURCE

More information on Vegatarian Diet deficiencies can be found here

http://www.kitchentablemedicine.com/the-top-five-nutrients-vegetarians-should-watch-out-for/

http://www.livestrong.com/article/60597-protein-deficiency-risk-vegetarian-diet/

http://www.health.harvard.edu/press_releases/vitamin_b12_deficiency

AGNIVEER WROTE:

Q: What about Hindus who kill during festivals like Kali Puja?

A: What do you expect us to say? They are also wrong and acting inhuman. Perhaps slightly less because they use ‘jhatka’ instead of ‘halal’ method but nonetheless a murder is a murder. Vedas nowhere sanction this in name of worship of God. Vedas, on contrary, loudly proclaim that compassion towards all animals is necessary to qualify as a human being. Refer No beef in Vedas. Had Hindus not succumbed to anti-Vedic practices, how could the brutal uncivilized invaders conquer them and still rule them despite a pseudo-independence!

MY RESPONSE:

Meat consumption is supported in the Vedas, Meat was eaten during occasions and specially during the Yajna (Sacrifice), read my article Meat consumption in Hinduism.

AGNVIEER WROTE:

The Hadith of Zâd al-ma‘âd by Ibn Qayyim says that:

The Prophet, peace be upon him, said:

“You should use cows’ milk, because it is good for health, and cows’ ghee is good for health, but beef is bad for health.”

Actually, the literal meaning of the words the Prophet used is much stronger than that. He said that milk is “healing,” ghee is “medicine,” and beef is “disease.”

In the Book of Medicine of the Mustadrak al-Hakîm [a classical hadith commentary by al-Hakîm al-Nîsaburî], the first hadith is: The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings upon him, said: “Allah did not create any disease without creating its cure; and in cows’ milk is a cure for every disease.” The third hadith in this book says on the subject of healing: “Because the cow grazes from every kind of plant.” Refer http://ipaki.com/content/html/28/1203.html

MY RESPONSE:

Agniveer has posted two hadiths without mentioning the chains of narrators which makes the hadiths fabricated and no Muslims believe in fabricated Hadiths. There are some Hadith which tells us that Prophet Muhammad (S.A.W) sent beef to his wives [2] If beef was regarded dangerous by prophet then why would he send beef to his wives, Moreover there are some hadiths which shows prophet used to eat meat and liked eating meat [3].

  1. (Vivekanand, The Complete Works of Swami Vivekanand, Vol 3, Calcutta, Advait Ashram, 1997)
  2. Sahih Bukhari 2.767
  3. Bukhari 1:643, [Bukhari 4712, Muslim 196 Ahmed 9629] as mentioned in Sunan Al Tirmidhi ch 34, hadith # 1844

 

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