{"id":583,"date":"2015-06-23T17:11:10","date_gmt":"2015-06-23T17:11:10","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/vedkabhed.com\/index.php\/2015\/06\/23\/rebuttal-to-agniveer-allah-shapeless-or-limited\/"},"modified":"2026-03-28T06:41:59","modified_gmt":"2026-03-28T06:41:59","slug":"rebuttal-to-agniveer-allah-shapeless-or-limited","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/vedkabhed.com\/index.php\/2015\/06\/23\/rebuttal-to-agniveer-allah-shapeless-or-limited\/","title":{"rendered":"Rebuttal to Agniveer: Allah Shapeless or Limited"},"content":{"rendered":"

Written by Muhammad Salman
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Article by Brothers Mushafiq Sultan & Asim ul Haq<\/strong>
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Proof reading by Sister Noor ul Huda<\/strong>
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Assalamualaikum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barkatahu (May Peace, Blessings & Mercy of Allah Be Upon You)
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This Article is in reply to the article in Anti Islamic website agniveer.com with title,\u00a0Allah \u2013 Shapeless or Limited?\u00a0<\/strong>Article is available here:\u00a0http:\/\/agniveer.com\/939\/allah-shapeless\/<\/span><\/a>
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Response to the above article is divided in 3 parts<\/strong><\/span>
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1) Introductory reply to topic
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2)\u00a0Replying Agniveer’s 12 points against Qur`an
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3)\u00a0Replying Agniveer’s 7 points on the concept of God in Vedas\u00a0(a) to (g).<\/strong><\/span>
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1) Introductory reply to topic<\/strong><\/span>
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Agniveer states:<\/em><\/span>
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The common Muslim belief is that Allah is a shapeless and omnipresent entity. This is not only an accurate description of qualities of All-powerful Ishwar, but also in lines with Vedas.<\/span>
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Response:<\/strong><\/span>
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The author don’t even know the actual belief of Muslims, A Muslim will never say Allah is omnipresent with his essence, but the belief of a Muslim is Allah is everywhere with his knowledge and Allah is over (Istawaa<\/strong>)\u00a0the (Mighty) Throne<\/strong>\u00a0in a manner that suits His Majesty, separate from his creation and we believe in his attributes without matching HIM with HIS creation (whoever does that he is not a muslim) because there is nothing like unto HIM (Allah).
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For proof see these Ayahs.
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[057:004]<\/strong>\u00a0He it is Who created the heavens and the earth in six Days and\u00a0then Istawa (rose over) the Throne\u00a0<\/strong>(in a manner that suits His Majesty). He\u00a0knows what goes into the earth\u00a0<\/strong>and what comes forth from it, what descends from the heaven and what ascends thereto. And He is with you (by His Knowledge) wheresoever you may be. And Allah is the All-Seer of what you do (Muhammad Al-Hilali & Muhsin Khan)<\/strong>.\u00a0<\/strong>
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[042:011]<\/strong>The Creator of the heavens and the earth. He has made for you mates from yourselves, and for the cattle (also) mates. By this means He creates you (in the wombs).\u00a0There is nothing like unto Him, and He is the All-Hearer, the All-Seer.<\/strong>(Muhammad Al-Hilali & Muhsin Khan)
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So, when starting of the article is so weak because they don’t know the creed of their opponent, how can their article be a credible any more? The whole article is answered in these few sentences but still we are replying to author’s arguments.<\/strong>
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Agniveer states:<\/span>
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However if we dwell into the modern Quran, we can witness an Allah which has a shape and size. This is in sharp contradiction to the established concept of Allah and hint at either there being tampering with original Quran or that Quran is not the final word of either Muhammad or Allah.
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Response:<\/strong><\/span>
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What does he mean by Modern Qur`an?? The Qur`an never changed, it is the same as it was 1400 years ago, Alhumdu`lillah, Holy Qura’an says;
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[015:009]\u00a0<\/strong>Verily We: It is We Who have sent down the Dhikr (i.e. the Quran) and surely, We will guard it (from corruption). (Muhammad Al-Hilali & Muhsin Khan:)
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Check this link, “The Compilation of the Quran” (from kids corner of website because author don’t even know basics)<\/span>
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\u00a0<\/span><\/a>http:\/\/www.islamweb.net\/kidsen\/kids%20corner%201<\/span><\/a>,2\/subjects\/gam3elkoraan1.html<\/span><\/a>\u00a0<\/strong><\/span>
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2)\u00a0Replying Agniveer’s 12 points against Qur`an<\/span><\/strong><\/span>
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Agniveer states:<\/em><\/span>
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1. Surate Yunis, Ayat 6 states that Allah created the sky and earth in 6 days and then settled at the top in his throne.<\/em><\/strong>
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Response:<\/strong><\/span>
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This is utter lie because this is what Allah says in\u00a0SURAH YUNUS<\/span>\u00a0(not Yunis)<\/span>
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[010:006]\u00a0Verily, in the alternation of the night and the day and in all that Allah has created in the heavens and the earth are Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) for those people who keep their duty to Allah, and fear Him much. (Muhammad Al-Hilali & Muhsin Khan)
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So, it is clearly seen that what the ayah says and what the author claimed about the ayah are two way different things?? I believe he just copied and pasted or he is willingly trying to deceive.
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Agniveer states:<\/em><\/span>\u00a0<\/em>
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2. Surate Hood, Ayat 7 states that Allah created the sky and earth in 6 days and his throne is over the water.<\/em><\/strong>
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Tafseer Husaini, a supposedly authoritative commentary on Quran states that Allah created a green stone before creating the world and saw it with anger. This caused the stone to become water. Then Allah created air and kept water over air. Then he made his throne above this water.<\/em><\/strong>
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It is obvious that writers of Quran were ignorant of science and hence thought that since rainfall comes from top, there must be water over air. And since there is so much empty space on top, Allah must be sitting there!<\/em><\/strong>
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Response:<\/strong>
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Firstly<\/strong>\u00a0I have never ever heard about the tafsir of husaini, and i don’t know who is the author, this commentary is not authority in any case.<\/span>
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Secondly ,this is Surah Hud ayah 7<\/strong>
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[011:007]<\/strong>\u00a0And He it is Who has created the heavens and the earth in six Days and His Throne was on the water, that He might try you, which of you is the best in deeds. But if you were to say to them: “You shall indeed be raised up after death,” those who disbelieve would be sure to say, “This is nothing but obvious magic.”(Muhammad Al-Hilali & Muhsin Khan)
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\u00a0Prophet peace be upon him said,\u00a0\u00ab\u0643\u064e\u0627\u0646\u064e \u0627\u0644\u0644\u0647\u064f \u0642\u064e\u0628\u0652\u0644\u064e \u0643\u064f\u0644\u0651\u0650 \u0634\u064e\u064a\u0652\u0621\u064d\u060c \u0648\u064e\u0643\u064e\u0627\u0646\u064e \u0639\u064e\u0631\u0652\u0634\u064f\u0647\u064f \u0639\u064e\u0644\u064e\u0649 \u0627\u0644\u0652\u0645\u064e\u0627\u0621\u0650\u060c \u0648\u064e\u0643\u064e\u062a\u064e\u0628\u064e \u0641\u0650\u064a \u0627\u0644\u0644\u0651\u064e\u0648\u0652\u062d\u0650 \u0627\u0644\u0652\u0645\u064e\u062d\u0652\u0641\u064f\u0648\u0638\u0650 \u0630\u0650\u0643\u0652\u0631\u064e \u0643\u064f\u0644\u0651\u0650 \u0634\u064e\u064a\u0652\u0621\u00a0\u00a0\u00bb
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\u00a0(Allah was before everything and His Throne was over the water. He then wrote in the Preserved Tablet (Loh e Mahfooz) mentioning everything.) (Commentry of Ibne kathir under the ayah 11:7)
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\u00a0So what is the problem here?? There is no beginning of Allah, and as we already made it clear,\u00a0Allah is over\u00a0(Istawaa) the (Mighty) Throne<\/strong>\u00a0in a manner that suits His Majesty, separate from his creation and we believe in his attributes without matching with HIS creation(whoever matches he is not a muslim) because there is nothing like unto him (Allah).
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\u00a0Check the following article regarding the belief of Muslims:<\/strong>\u00a0http:\/\/www.as-salaf.com\/article.php?aid=66&lang=en<\/span><\/a>
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\u00a0The Istiwa of Allah Almighty does not resemble the istiwa of creation, rather, we believe that Allah istawa over His Throne in a manner befitting His Majesty, not like that of creation.
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\u00a0Allah (swt) said :\u00a0[42:11]<\/strong>\u00a0There is nothing like Him, and He is the All-Hearer, the All-Seer
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\u00a0And,
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\u00a0[112:4]<\/strong>And there is none coequal or comparable to Him
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\u00a0The kayfiyyah (reality; how-ness) of Allah’s Istiwa is unknown to us, as Allah has not informed us, nor did His Messenger \u2013sallallahu alayhi wa salamm-, on the details of this matter, and it is not permissible to ask about the kayfiyyah of His Attributes. Allah Almighty alone knows how He Rose (Istawa) over His Throne and our duty is to believe and submit without doubt.
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Agniveer states:<\/em><\/span>
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\u00a0So much for Islamic science. However what is more important is that this makes clear that his throne is a finite object and hence Allah is also finite in size. Also since Allah is on his throne, he is not below the air and water. Thus the Allah of Quran is limited in shape and location, contrary to common belief of Muslims.<\/strong><\/em>
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Response<\/strong>
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Here Agniveer is comparing Allah and his throne to His creation, (which is Kufar). Also No Muslim believes that Allah has limitations rather, the scholars (may Allah have mercy on them) have stated that the Throne covers all of creation and is above it.<\/span>
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For more detail see, “Is the Throne above the seventh heaven?” source: http:\/\/islamqa.com\/en\/ref\/47048
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\u00a0And if someone says that Muslim do believe in limitations, then that is with the meaning:” which distinguishes Him from anything else”;
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Shaykh ul Islam ibn Taymiyyah discusses the statements of those from the Pious Predecessors who negated the usage of the word\u00a0hadd(limit)<\/strong>, and those who used it, and explains that in reality both groups were saying the same thing, and the difference was merely of wording not of meaning:
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“If the understood meaning of this word is that Allah is in any way enclosed by His creation, then Allah is Greater and more Mighty, rather His Kursi is as the expanse of the Heavens and the earth\u2026and if what is meant by this word is that he is distinct from His creation, then He is as the Imaams of Ahlus Sunnah said about Him: over His Heavens, above His Throne, distinct from creation.”\u00a0[‘at-Tadmuriyyah’ (pg.46)of ibn Taymiyyah, check also for further details, ‘Talbees al-Jahmiyyah’ (2\/163)]\u00a0(See saying of Shaykh Ibne Tamiyah here:\u00a0http:\/\/islamworld.net\/docs\/tay.html<\/span><\/a>)
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Agniveer states:<\/em><\/span>
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Please note that the concept of a shapeless, omnipresent Allah is inspired from Vedas, which form the foundation of all that is good and right in Quran. Also, unlike Quran, Vedas are available in same original form as when it was first revealed in hearts of Rishis.<\/em><\/strong><\/span>
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Response:<\/strong>
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This is utter lie because no Muslim believe in Allah’s omnipresence, This is Agniveer belief, and If Vedas are still in orignal form, can they tell us to which Prophet Vedas were revealed?? This is not the time to praise vedas.<\/span>
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See Islamic Answer regarding Vedas:\u00a0http:\/\/www.ilovezakirnaik.com\/misconceptions\/c10.htm<\/a>
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Agniveer states:
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3. Surate Haka 17 states that eight people will lift the throne of Allah Miyan. Tafseere Husaini details it further by stating that those who will lift the throne of Allah will have faces like goats from mountains. The distance between their ankles and knees will equal the distance from one sky to another sky.\u00a0 (Islam believes there are 7 skies!)<\/em><\/strong><\/span>
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\u00a0Response:
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1stly<\/strong>\u00a0there is nothing like ALLAH MIYAN??
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2ndly<\/strong>\u00a0Tafseer Husaini is no where evidence, and
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3rdly<\/strong>\u00a0this is not 7 skies but 7 layers.
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\u00a0Ibn Katheer commented in his Tafseer on the saying of Allah (which means):\u00a0{who has created the seven heavens one above the another.}[67:3]<\/strong><\/span>\u00a0which means layers one above another. With regard to whether these layers are successive one on top of the other, or they are separate and there is gap between them; there are two opinions about this.
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\u00a0The most correct opinion, however, is that the layers are separate and there is gap between them. The evidence is the narration about\u00a0Israa’ and Mi’araaj<\/span>\u00a0and other narrations. One of these narrations is classified as weak by some scholars. The narration is as following:\u00a0The Prophet said: “And between each heaven and the other, there is a distance of travel of 500 years, and the thickness of each heaven is a distance of travel of 500 years.”\u00a0[Ahmad].<\/span><\/span>
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For detailed answer visit the following link:
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http:\/\/www.islamweb.net\/emainpage\/index.php?page=showfatwa&Option=FatwaId&Id=89488<\/span><\/a>
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\u00a0Also see
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\u00a0Seven Atmospheric Layers in the Noble Quran confirmed by Science!:\u00a0http:\/\/www.answering-christianity.com\/seven_layers.htm<\/span><\/a>
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Coming to SURAH AL-HAQQAH\u00a0(not Hakka)\u00a0<\/strong>Ayah 17 agniveer claims that 8 people will lift the throne, this is not 8 people this is Angels;
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\u00a0The ayah says:<\/span>
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And the angels will be on its sides, and eight angels will, that Day, bear the Throne of your Lord above them.<\/span>
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No where it says Angels will lift Allah.<\/strong>
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\u00a0Commentary of Ibne Kathir says;
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\u00a0(And the angels will be on its sides,) The word Malak here is referring to the species of angels (all of them); meaning the angels collectively will be standing on the sides of the heavens. Ar-Rabi` bin Anas said concerning Allah’s statement,
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\u00a0\u00a0\ufd3f\u0648\u064e\u0627\u0644\u0652\u0645\u064e\u0644\u064e\u0643\u064f \u0639\u064e\u0644\u064e\u0649 \u0623\u064e\u0631\u0652\u062c\u064e\u0622\u0626\u0650\u0647\u064e\u0622\ufd3e
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\u00a0(And the angels will be on its sides,) “This means that they will be standing on what has been ground to powder of the heavens looking at the people of the earth.’
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Agniveer states:<\/span>
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Thus,
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a. Allah is definitely finite because he will be lifted by people of finite size.<\/em><\/strong>
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\u00a0Response<\/strong>\u00a0<\/span>
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\u00a0\u00a0No where the ayah says Angels will lift Allah<\/span><\/span>
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\u00a02ndly;
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A man asked Imam Malik (d. 179): “How did Allah make istiwa’ on the throne?” Imam Malik inclined his head and was silent until the sweat of fever covered his brow, then he looked up and said: “Istiwa’ is not unknown (ghayru majhul), the modality of it is inconceivable in the mind (al-kayfu minhu ghayru ma`qul); but belief in it is obligatory, and inquiring about it is a heretical innovation. You are an innovator.” And he gave orders for him to be taken out.
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In Asool ul Aiteqaad PAGE 398 AND 399
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Imam Malik also said;
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\u0648\u0623\u062e\u0631\u062c \u0627\u0644\u0647\u0631\u0648\u064a \u0639\u0646 \u0623\u0634\u0647\u0628 \u0628\u0646 \u0639\u0628\u062f \u0627\u0644\u0639\u0632\u064a\u0632 \u0642\u0627\u0644 : \u0633\u0645\u0639\u062a \u0645\u0627\u0644\u0643\u0627\u064b \u064a\u0642\u0648\u0644 : \u0625\u064a\u0651\u0627\u0643\u0645 \u0648\u0627\u0644\u0628\u062f\u0639 \u060c \u0642\u064a\u0644 \u064a\u0627 \u0623\u0628\u0627 \u0639\u0628\u062f \u0627\u0644\u0644\u0647 \u060c \u0648\u0645\u0627 \u0627\u0644\u0628\u062f\u0639 \u061f \u0642\u0627\u0644 : \u0623\u0647\u0644 \u0627\u0644\u0628\u062f\u0639 \u0627\u0644\u0630\u064a\u0646 \u064a\u062a\u0643\u0644\u0645\u0648\u0646 \u0641\u064a \u0623\u0633\u0645\u0627\u0621 \u0627\u0644\u0644\u0647 \u0648\u0635\u0641\u0627\u062a\u0647 \u0648\u0643\u0644\u0627\u0645\u0647 \u0648\u0639\u0650\u0644\u0652\u0645\u0647 \u0648\u0642\u062f\u0631\u062a\u0647 \u0648\u0644\u0627 \u064a\u0633\u0643\u062a\u0648\u0646 \u0639\u0645\u0651\u0627 \u0633\u0643\u062a \u0639\u0646\u0647 \u0627\u0644\u0635\u062d\u0627\u0628\u0629 \u0648\u0627\u0644\u062a\u0627\u0628\u0639\u0648\u0646 \u0644\u0647\u0645 \u0628\u0625\u062d\u0633\u0627\u0646\u00a0
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Ashhab bin Abdul Aziz said: I heard the Malik saying: “Beware of innovations, it was said, O Abu Abdullah, and what is innovation? He said: the people of innovation are those who speak regarding the names and attributes of God and his speech and his knowledge and ability and do not remain silent about where the companions were silent and the tabiuun.\u00a0\u0630\u0645 \u0627\u0644\u0643\u0644\u0627\u0645 ( \u0642173 \u2013 \u0623\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0)
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Agniveer states:<\/em><\/span>
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b. Allah has to be smaller than the throne he sits on, at least in width.<\/em><\/strong>
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Response:<\/strong><\/span>
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No one believes that Allah sits on throne it has been clarified before.<\/span>
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\u00a0Throne covers all of creation and is above it. The kayfiyyah (reality; how-ness) of Allah’s Istiwa is unknown to us, as Allah has not informed us, nor did His Messenger \u2013sallallahu alayhi wa salamm-, on the details of this matter, and it is not permissable to ask about the reality,howness of His Attributes. Allah Almighty alone knows how He Rose (Istawa) over His Throne, and our duty is to believe and submit.
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Agniveer states:<\/span>
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4. Surate Sijada 5 says that He manages affairs of earth and then rises up to the sky in one Godly day which equals 1000 human years.<\/em><\/strong>
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Now, how can someone who moves up and down in 1000 years be shapeless.<\/em><\/strong>
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Some experts say that this description is for angels. Even if that be so, if angels take 1000 years to reach him, that also means that Allah is finite and limited in space. Because one need not travel to reach someone who is present everywhere.<\/em><\/strong>
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Response
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No where this verse says that ALLAH moves up and down in 1000 years, it is an utter lie, and how cleverly he said some experts say that this is description for angles. In fact it is not some experts but all the Muslims say it is not for Allah nor this ayah is for Angels, but this is for deeds and affairs.<\/span>
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\u00a0The ayat is here:
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\u00a0[032:005]<\/strong>\u00a0He arranges (every) affair from the heavens to the earth, then it (affair) will go up to Him, in one Day, the space whereof is a thousand years of your reckoning (i.e. reckoning of our present worlds time).(Muhammad Al-Hilali & Muhsin Khan)
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Ibne Kathir Commented
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This is like the Ayah,\u00a0\u00a0\ufd3f\u0627\u0644\u0644\u0651\u064e\u0647\u064f \u0627\u0644\u0651\u064e\u0630\u0650\u0649 \u062e\u064e\u0644\u064e\u0642\u064e \u0633\u064e\u0628\u0652\u0639\u064e \u0633\u064e\u0645\u064e\u0640\u0648\u064e\u062a\u064d \u0648\u064e\u0645\u0650\u0646\u064e \u0627\u0644\u0627\u0651\u064c\u0631\u0652\u0636\u0650 \u0645\u0650\u062b\u0652\u0644\u064e\u0647\u064f\u0646\u0651\u064e \u064a\u064e\u062a\u064e\u0646\u064e\u0632\u0651\u064e\u0644\u064f \u0627\u0644\u0627\u0651\u064c\u0645\u0652\u0631\u064f \u0628\u064e\u064a\u0652\u0646\u064e\u0647\u064f\u0646\u0651\u064e\ufd3e
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\u00a0(It is Allah Who has created seven heavens and of the earth the like thereof. The command descends between them, ) (65:12) Deeds are raised up to the place of recording above the lowest heaven.
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Agniveer states:<\/span>
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This is further emphasized in Surate-Maariz Ayat 4 which states that Spirits and Angels rise up to him in 50,000 years.<\/em><\/strong>
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Now whether the actual time taken is 50,000 years or 1000 years is another contradiction in Quran which proves that it is defective or interpolated. But regardless of that, the finite shape and limited scope of Allah is proven.<\/em><\/strong>
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Response<\/strong>
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This accusation is already replied see here\u00a0http:\/\/ilovezakirnaik.com\/misconceptions\/b14.htm<\/strong><\/span><\/a><\/span>
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Extracted from above link;<\/strong>
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1. Time of Allah is incomparable to earthly time
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The Qur’an says in two verses, (22:47 and 32:5), that the measure of one day in the sight of Allah is equal to 1,000 years of our reckoning. In another verse (70:4) it says that the measure of one day in the sight of Allah is equal to 50,000 years of our reckoning.
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\u00a0These verses generally mean that the time of Allah (swt) is incomparable to the earthly time. The examples given are of one thousand years and fifty thousand years of the earthly time. In other words thousands of years or a very, very long time of the earth is a day in the sight of Allah.
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2. Yaum also means Period
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The Arabic word used in all these three verses is yaum, which, besides meaning a day also means a long period, or an epoch. If you translate the word yaum correctly as ‘period’ there will be no confusion.
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\u00a0a) The verse from Surah Hajj reads as:\u00a0<\/strong>
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“Yet they ask thee to hasten on the Punishment! but Allah will not fail in His promise. Verily a Day in the sight of thy Lord is like a thousand years of your reckoning”.[Al-Qur’an 22:47]\n<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

\u00a0When the unbelievers asked to hasten the punishment the Qur’an says Allah will not fail in His promise. Verily a period in the sight of Allah is like a thousand years of your reckoning.
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\u00a0b) The verse from Surah Al-Sajdah says:<\/strong>
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“He rules (all) affairs from the heavens to the earth: in the end will (all affairs) go up? To Him, on a Day, the space whereof will be (as) a thousand years of your reckoning”.[Al-Qur’an 32:5]\n<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

\u00a0This verse indicates that a period required for all the affairs to go up to Allah (swt), is a thousand years of our reckoning.<\/strong>
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\u00a0c) A verse from Surah Al-Maarij says:\u00a0<\/strong>
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“The angels and the spirit ascend unto Him in a Day the measure whereof is (as) fifty thousand years”.[Al-Qur’an 70:4]\n<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

\u00a0This verse means that the period required for angels and the spirits to ascend unto Allah (swt) is fifty thousand years<\/strong>.
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\u00a0d) The period for two different acts need not be the same.\u00a0<\/strong>For example the period required for me to travel to destination ‘A’ say Vashi is one hour and the period required for me to travel to destination ‘B’ i.e. Kashmir is 50 hours. This does not indicate that I am making two contradictory statements.
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Thus the verses of the Qur’an don’t contradict each other and they are in perfect harmony with established modern scientific facts.
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\u00a0Check also:\u00a0http:\/\/www.answering-christianity.com\/karim\/i004_rebuttal.htm<\/span><\/a><\/strong>
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Agniveer states:<\/span>\u00a0<\/strong>
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5. Sura-e-vakiya 9,10 describe Heaven and Hell. It says that Heaven is on right side of Allah’ throne and Hell on left side. Tafseer Husaini elaborates further that those who will go to Hell will go towards left of throne and those who will go to Heaven will go to right of the throne.<\/em><\/strong>
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This proves that the throne is limited in space. Obviously, one who sits on a limited space is also limited.<\/em><\/strong>
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\u00a0Response:<\/strong>
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I wonder if he ever read holy Qur’an! Here are the verse 9,10 of surah waqiyah:
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[056:009]<\/strong>\u00a0And those on the Left Hand (i.e. those who will be given their Record in their left hands), Who will be those on the Left Hand? (As a disgrace for them, because they will enter Hell).
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[056:010]\u00a0<\/strong>And those foremost ((in Islamic Faith of Monotheism and in performing righteous deeds) in the life of this world on the very first call for to embrace Islam,) will be foremost (in Paradise).(Muhammad Al-Hilali & Muhsin Khan)
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So these verses are about those who will be given their Record of deeds in their left hands.
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Tafsir Jalalyain says:<\/strong><\/span>
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And those of the left [hand] (al-mash’ama means al-shim\u0101l, ‘left’), each of whom is given his record [of deeds] in their left hands \u2014 what of those of the left [hand]? \u2014\u00a0an expression of contempt for their status on account of their admittance into the Fire.<\/strong>
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Tafsir At Tasturi says:<\/strong><\/span>
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And those of the left hand, what of those of the left [ hand]?
\nThis means those who are given the book [of deeds] in their left hand.<\/strong>
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Agniveer states:<\/em><\/span>\u00a0<\/em>
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6. Surate Airaf 143 states that when Allah saw the hill, it broke into pieces and Moses went unconscious. Obviously Moses must have witnessed lightning and got unnecessarily scared. But what is obvious is that the light in Allah’s eyes was finite and limited to size of the hill. So Allah has a finite-sized eye and hence is limited in shape and power.<\/em><\/strong>
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Response<\/strong>
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This is the ayah 143 of SURAH AARAF;
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[007:143]<\/strong>\u00a0And when Moosa (Moses) came at the time and place appointed by Us, and his Lord spoke to him, he said: “O my Lord! Show me (Yourself), that I may look upon You.” Allah said: “You cannot see Me, but look upon the mountain if it stands still in its place then you shall see Me.”\u00a0<\/span>So when his Lord appeared to the mountain, He made it collapse to dust, and Moosa (Moses) fell down unconscious. Then when he recovered his senses he said: “Glory be to You, I turn to You in repentance and I am the first of the believers.”(Muhammad Al-Hilali & Muhsin Khan)
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\u00a0No where this Ayah says Allah saw the hill now see the commentaries.
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.
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Ibne Kathir commented:<\/strong><\/span>
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Musnad Imam Ahmad recorded from Anas bin Malik that the Prophet said about Allah’s saying;
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(And when his Lord appeared to the mountain, )
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(Like this) then he held out the tip of his little finger. At-Tirmidhi recorded this in the chapter of Tafsir for this Ayah, then he said; “This Hadith is Hasan Sahih Gharib.” This was also recorded by Al-Hakim in his Mustadrak through the route of Hamad bin Salamah, and he said; “This Hadith is Sahih according to the criteria of Muslim and they did not record it.” And As-Suddi reported that `Ikrimah reported from Ibn `Abbas about Allah’s saying,
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\u00a0(And when his Lord appeared to the mountain,) Only the extent of the little finger appeared from Him.
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Tafsir of Jalal`yan says:<\/strong><\/span>
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And when his Lord revealed Himself, that is, [when] He manifested of His Light the equivalent of half a nail of a little finger, as stated in one had\u012bth verified by al-H\u0101kim, to the mountain He leveled it to the ground (end).
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So here we can see Allah manifested His Light the equivalent of half a nail of the little finger, and Allah Has Power over Everything.
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Agniveer states:<\/em><\/span>
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7. Surat-Noor Ayat 35 says that Allah is the Light of the heavens and the earth. The example of His light is like a niche within which is a lamp, the lamp is within glass, the glass as if it were a pearly [white] star lit from [the oil of] a blessed olive tree, neither of the east nor of the west, whose oil would almost glow even if untouched by fire. Light upon light. Allah guides to His light whom He wills.<\/em><\/strong>
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After analyzing countless commentaries, I failed to understand the meaning of this confusing Ayat. But what is important is that Allah is not beyond physical descriptions. What is lamp, glass or olive is beyond comprehension.<\/em><\/strong>
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\u00a0Response<\/strong>
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First of all which tafsir agniveer studied?? So far he is quoting from the unknown “tafsir husaini”.
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Well here is the ayah with commentaries.
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\u00a0[024:035]<\/strong>\u00a0Allah is the Light of the heavens and the earth. The parable of His Light is as (if there were) a niche and within it a lamp, the lamp is in glass, the glass as it were a brilliant star, lit from a blessed tree, an olive, neither of the east (i.e. neither it gets sun-rays only in the morning) nor of the west (i.e. nor it gets sun-rays only in the afternoon, but it is exposed to the sun all day long), whose oil would almost glow forth (of itself), though no fire touched it. Light upon Light! Allah guides to His Light whom He wills. And Allah sets forth parables for mankind, and Allah is All-Knower of everything.(end)\u00a0(Muhammad Al-Hilali & Muhsin Khan)
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Tafsir Ibne Kathir says:<\/strong><\/span>
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Ali bin Abi Talhah reported that Ibn `Abbas said:
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(Allah is the Light of the heavens and the earth.) means, the Guide of the inhabitants of the heavens and the earth. Ibn Jurayj said: “Mujahid and Ibn `Abbas said concerning the Ayah:
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(Allah is the Light of the heavens and the earth.) He is controlling their affairs and their stars and sun and moon.” As-Suddi said concerning the Ayah:
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(Allah is the Light of the heavens and the earth.) by His Light the heavens and earth are illuminated. In the Two Sahihs, it is recorded that Ibn `Abbas, may Allah be pleased with him, said: “When the Messenger of Allah got up to pray at night, he would say:
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(O Allah, to You be praise, You are the Sustainer of heaven and earth and whoever is in them. To You be praise, You are the Light of the heavens and the earth and whoever is in them. ) It was narrated that Ibn Mas`ud said, “There is no night or day with your Lord; the Light of the Throne comes from the Light of His Face.”
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(The parable of His Light) There are two views concerning the meaning of the pronoun (His). The first is that it refers to Allah, may He be glorified and exalted, meaning that the parable of His guidance in the heart of the believer is (As a niche) this was the view of Ibn `Abbas.
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The second view is that this pronoun refers to the believer, which is indicated by the context of the words and implies that the parable of the light in the heart of the believer is as a niche. So the heart of the believer and what he is naturally inclined to of guidance and what he learns of the Qur’an which is in accordance with his natural inclinations are, as Allah says:
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(Can they who rely on a clear proof from their Lord, and whom a witness from Him recite it (can they be equal with the disbelievers))\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\ufd3f\u00a0\u00a011:17\u00a0\u00a0\ufd3e\u00a0\u00a0. The heart of the believer in its purity and clarity is likened to a lamp in transparent and jewel-like glass, and the Qur’an and Shari`ah by which it is guided are likened to good, pure, shining oil in which there is no impurity or deviation.
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(As (if there were) a niche) Ibn `Abbas, Mujahid, Muhammad bin Ka`b and others said, “This refers to the position of the wick in the lamp.” This is well-known, and hence Allah then says:
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(and within it a lamp.) This is the flame that burns brightly. Or it was said that the niche is a niche in the house. This is the parable given by Allah of obedience towards Him. Allah calls obedience to Him as light, then He calls it by other numerous names as well. Ubayy bin Ka`b said, “The lamp is the light, and this refers to the Qur’an and the faith that is in his heart.” As-Suddi said, “It is the lamp.”
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(the lamp is in a glass,) means, this light is shining in a clear glass. Ubayy bin Ka`b and others said, “This is the likeness of the heart of the believer.”
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(the glass as it were a star Durriyyun,) Some authorities recite the word Durriyyun with a Dammah on the Dal and without a Hamzah, which means pearls, i.e., as if it were a star made of pearls (Durr). Others recite it as Dirri’un or Durri’un, with a Kasrah on the Dal, or Dammah on the Dal, and with a Hamzah at the end, which means reflection (Dir’), because if something is shone on the star it becomes brighter than at any other time. The Arabs call the stars they do not know Darari. Ubayy bin Ka`b said: a shining star. Qatadah said: “Huge, bright and clear.”
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(lit from a blessed tree,) means, it is derived from olive oil, from a blessed tree.
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(an olive,) This refers to the blessed tree mentioned previously.
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(neither of the east nor of the west,) means, it is not in the eastern part of the land so that it does not get any sun in the first part of the day, nor is it in the western part of the land so that it is shaded from the sun before sunset, but it is in a central position where it gets sun from the beginning of the day until the end, so its oil is good and pure and shining. Ibn Abi Hatim recorded that Ibn `Abbas commented on:
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(an olive, neither of the east nor of the west,) “This is a tree in the desert which is not shaded by any other tree or mountain or cave, nothing covers it, and this is best for its oil.” Mujahid commented on:
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(neither of the east nor of the west, ) saying; “It is not in the east where it will get no sun when the sun sets, nor is it in the west where it will get no sun when the sun rises, but it is in a position where it will get sun both at sunrise and sunset.” Sa`id bin Jubayr commented:
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(an olive, neither of the east nor of the west, whose oil would almost glow forth (of itself)) “This is the best kind of oil. When the sun rises it reaches the tree from the east and when it sets it reaches it from the west, so the sun reaches it morning and evening, so it is not counted as being in the east or in the west.”
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(whose oil would almost glow forth (of itself), though no fire touched it.) `Abdur-Rahman bin Zayd bin Aslam said (this means) because the oil itself is shining.
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(Light upon Light!) Al-`Awfi narrated from Ibn `Abbas that this meant the faith and deeds of a person. As-Suddi said:
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(Light upon Light!) “Light of the fire and the light of the oil: when they are combined they give light, and neither of them can give light without the other. Similarly the light of the Qur’an and the light of faith give light when they are combined, and neither can do so without the other.”
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(Allah guides to His Light whom He wills.) means, Allah shows the way to the ones whom He chooses, as it says in the Hadith recorded by Imam Ahmad from `Abdullah bin `Amr, who said, “I heard the Messenger of Allah saying:
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(Allah created His creation in darkness, then on the same day He sent His Light upon them. Whoever was touched by His Light on that day will be guided and whoever was missed will be led astray. Hence I say: the pens have dried in accordance with the knowledge of Allah, may He be glorified.)”
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(And Allah sets forth parables for mankind, and Allah is All-Knower of everything.) Having mentioned this parable of the Light of His guidance in the heart of the believer, Allah ends this Ayah with the words:
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(And Allah sets forth parables for mankind, and Allah is All-Knower of everything.) meaning, He knows best who deserves to be guided and who deserves to be led astray. Imam Ahmad recorded that Abu Sa`id Al-Khudri said, “The Messenger of Allah said:
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(Hearts are of four kinds: the heart that is clear like a shining lamp; the heart that is covered and tied up; the heart that is upside-down; and the heart that is clad in armor. As for the clear heart, it is the heart of the believer in which is a lamp filled with light; as for the covered heart, this is the heart of the disbeliever; as for the upside-down heart, this is the heart of the hypocrite, who recognizes then denies; as for the armor-clad heart, this is the heart in which there is both faith and hypocrisy. The parable of the faith in it is that of legume, a sprout that is irrigated with good water, and the likeness of the hypocrisy in it is that of sores that are fed by blood and pus. Whichever of the two prevails is the characteristic that will dominate.) Its chain of narrators is good (Jayyid) although they (Al-Bukhari and Muslim) did not record it.(end quote from tafsir Ibne Kathir)
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I wonder if he read tafsir Ibne Kathir as\u00a0<\/span>agniveer said:<\/span>\u00a0A<\/strong>fter analyzing countless commentaries, I failed to understand the meaning of this confusing Ayat.<\/span><\/span>
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Agniveer is advised NOT to comment on an ayah which he couldn’t apprehend. This is not sensible to comment on an ayah which is still to b understood.<\/strong><\/span>\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0<\/span>
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Agniveer states<\/em><\/span>\u00a0<\/em>
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8. Surah-Bakr 33 to 39, Surate Airaf 9 to 15, Surate Swad 70 to 78 etc describe Allah’s discussions with Angels, Adam and Satan. Adam was allowed to enter Heaven after lot of lecturing. Angels refused to bow to Adam out of ego but then agreed. Satan refused to bow to Adam because Satan believed that none other than Allah deserves to be bowed. Allah gave time of three days to Satan but he still refused. Then Allah cursed him.<\/em><\/strong>
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Thus Allah is one who scares, threatens, curses and gives excuses. Thus Allah is not an omnipresent, rational perfect being but an entity limited in scope and subject to whims and moods.<\/em><\/strong>
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\u00a0Response<\/strong>
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This person need some rest, see the ayahs nowhere any of the ayah says Angels refused to bow to Adam peace be upon him out of ego, these are\u00a0verses from Al Baqarah<\/strong>
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[002:033]<\/strong>\u00a0He said: “O Adam! Inform them of their names,” and when he had informed them of their names, He said: “Did I not tell you that I know the Ghaib (unseen) in the heavens and the earth, and I know what you reveal and what you have been concealing?”
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[002:034]<\/strong>\u00a0And (remember) when We said to the angels: “Prostrate yourselves before Adam.”\u00a0And they prostrated except Iblees (Satan)<\/span>, he refused and was proud and was one of the disbelievers (disobedient to Allah).<\/strong>
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[002:035]<\/strong>\u00a0And We said: “O Adam! Dwell you and your wife in the Paradise and eat both of you freely with pleasure and delight of things therein as wherever you will, but come not near this tree or you both will be of the Zalimoon (wrong-doers).”
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[002:036]<\/strong>\u00a0Then the Shaitan (Satan) made them slip therefrom (the Paradise), and got them out from that in which they were. We said: “Get you down, all, with enmity between yourselves. On earth will be a dwelling place for you and an enjoyment for a time.”
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[002:037]<\/strong>\u00a0Then Adam received from his Lord Words.\u00a0And his Lord pardoned him (accepted his repentance).<\/span>\u00a0Verily, He is the One Who forgives (accepts repentance), the Most Merciful.
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[002:038]<\/strong>\u00a0We said: “Get down all of you from this place (the Paradise), then whenever there comes to you Guidance from Me, and whoever follows My Guidance, there shall be no fear on them, nor shall they grieve.
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[002:039]<\/strong>\u00a0But those who disbelieve and belie Our Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) such are the dwellers of the Fire, they shall abide therein forever.(Muhammad Al-Hilali & Muhsin Khan)
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These are\u00a0ayahs from Al A`raf<\/strong>
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[007:009]<\/strong>\u00a0And as for those whose scale will be light, they are those who will lose their ownselves (by entering Hell) because they denied and rejected Our Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.).
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[007:010]<\/strong>\u00a0And surely, We gave you authority on the earth and appointed for you therein provisions (for your life). Little thanks do you give.
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[007:011]<\/strong>\u00a0And surely, We created you (your father Adam) and then gave you shape (the noble shape of a human being), thenWe told the angels, “Prostrate to Adam”, and they prostrated, except Iblees (Satan), he refused to be of those who prostrate.<\/strong>
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[007:012]<\/strong>\u00a0(Allah) said: “What prevented you (O Iblees) that you did not prostrate, when I commanded you?” Iblees said: “I am better than him (Adam), You created me from fire, and him You created from clay.”<\/span>
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[007:013]<\/strong>\u00a0(Allah) said: “(O Iblees) get down from this (Paradise), it is not for you to be arrogant here. Get out, for you are of those humiliated and disgraced.”
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[007:014]<\/strong>\u00a0(Iblees) said: “Allow me respite till the Day they are raised up (i.e. the Day of Resurrection).”<\/span>
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[007:015]<\/strong>\u00a0(Allah) said: “You are of those allowed respite.”\u00a0<\/span>(Muhammad Al-Hilali & Muhsin Khan)
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From\u00a0surah As Sa`d<\/strong>
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\u00a0[038:070]<\/strong>\u00a0“Only this has been inspired to me, that I am a plain warner.”
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[038:071]<\/strong>\u00a0(Remember) when your Lord said to the angels: “Truly, I am going to create man from clay”.
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[038:072]\u00a0<\/strong>So when I have fashioned him and breathed into him (his) soul created by Me, then you fall down prostrate to him.”<\/span>
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[038:073]<\/strong>\u00a0So the angels prostrated themselves, all of them:<\/strong>
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[038:074]<\/strong>\u00a0Except Iblees (Satan) he was proud and was one of the disbelievers.
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[038:075]\u00a0<\/strong>(Allah) said: “O Iblees (Satan)! What prevents you from prostrating yourself to one whom I have created with Both My Hands. Are you too proud (to fall prostrate to Adam) or are you one of the high exalted?”
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[038:076]<\/strong>\u00a0(Iblees (Satan)) said: “I am better than he, You created me from fire, and You created him from clay.”<\/span>
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[038:077]<\/strong>\u00a0(Allah) said: “Then get out from here, for verily, you are outcast.
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[038:078]<\/strong>\u00a0“And verily! My Curse is on you till the Day of Recompense.”\u00a0(Muhammad Al-Hilali & Muhsin Khan)
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\u00a0No where any of the ayah mentioned (as he claim)\u00a0Adam was allowed to enter Heaven after lot of lecturing. Angels refused to bow to Adam out of ego but then agreed.<\/strong>
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and agniveer claimed regarding satan:\u00a0<\/span><\/em>
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Satan refused to bow to Adam because Satan believed that none other than Allah deserves to be bowed. Allah gave time of three days to Satan but he still refused.<\/em><\/strong>
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\u00a0<\/strong>First of all from where he get that Allah gave time of three days?? 2ndly this bowing is not bowing of worship because worshiping is only for Allah. (This is not the time for detailed discussion on bowing of worship).<\/span><\/span>
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Agniveer states<\/span>
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9. Surate Swad 75 has Allah claiming that I made Adam with my two hands. Thus showing that Allah has two hands and hence is a finite person with human form. If the use of ‘two hands’ is merely allegorical, then what is special about Adam. All entities have been built by Allah as per Quran.<\/em><\/strong>
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Response<\/strong>
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When someone doesn’t know about attributes of Allah he should keep quiet, As I already quoted ayah There is nothing like unto him, and I already said someone who matches attributes of Allah with His creation is not a Muslim.<\/span>
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\u00a0Let us see the Ayah and understandings of Muhadditheen.
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[038:075]<\/strong>\u00a0(Allah) said: “O Iblees (Satan)! What prevents you from prostrating yourself to one whom I have created with Both My Hands. Are you too proud (to fall prostrate to Adam) or are you one of the high exalted?”\u00a0(Muhammad Al-Hilali & Muhsin Khan)
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Imam At-Tirmidhee (d. 279H) said in his Sunan (1\/128-129),\u00a0
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It has been stated by more than one person from the People of Knowledge about such ahaadeeth, that there is no tashbeeh (resemblance) to the Attributes of Allaah, and our Lord – the Blessed and Most High – descends to the lowest heaven every night. So they say: “Affirm these narrations, have\u00a0Eemaan\u00a0(faith) in them, do not deny them, nor ask how.” The likes of this has been related from Maalik ibn Anas, Sufyaan ath-Thawree, Ibn Uyainah and Abdullaah ibn al-Mubaarak, who all said about such ahaadeeth: “Leave them as they are, without asking how.” …..Ishaaq ibn Ibraheem [ar-Raahawaih] said:
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Tashbeeh is if it is said: “Hand like my hand, or similar to my hand”, or it is said: “Hearing like my Hearing, or similar to my hearing”, then this is tashbeeh. But if what is being said is what Allah has said: Hand, Hearing, Seeing and it is not asked how, nor is it said: “Like my hearing, or similar to my hearing” – then it is not tashbeeh. Allaah, the Most Blessed, Most High, said in His Book (ash-Shooraa 42:11): “There is none like unto Him, and he is the all-Hearing, the all-Seeing<\/strong>“
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\u00a0source of Tirmidhee:\u00a0http:\/\/hadith.al-islam.com\/Page.aspx?pageid=192&BookID=26&PID=598<\/span><\/a>
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\u00a0\u00a0Source of Translation:\u00a0http:\/\/www.aqidah.com\/creed\/articles\/dqxkb-the-creed-of-abu-bakr-al-ismaaeelee-d-371h-and-refutation-of-the-ashariyyah-jahmiyyah.cfm<\/strong><\/span><\/a><\/span><\/span>
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Brother Bassam Zawadi<\/strong>\u00a0quoted in his refutation of another anti Islamic person sam shamoun;
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Al Imam al-Dhahabi says:
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“Why do you say? A hand in reality is this bodily limb’? Rather, a ‘hand’ is homonym, and it is in accordance with, and of the same category of what it is attributed to. Therefore, if the thing described therewith is an animal then the hand would be a bodily limb. If it were was statue made of brass and stone, the hand would also be of brass and stone. If it were an image drawn on the wall, the hand would be a drawing. If it were that of which neither there is a like, nor it is a body, the hand would also be that of which neither there is a like, nor it is a body”
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\u00a0He also says:
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“If it is said: In its conventional usage, a hand only refers to the limb that we all know of. We would say in reply: Similarly, in conventional usage, knowledge, hearing and seeing are only accidents that subsist in bodies. Where, then, is the difference?”\u00a0(Ithbat al-Yad lilLahi subhanah p. 42-44 by al-Imam al-Dhahabi)
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\u00a0Indeed, the same logic applies to the face and shin and the rest of Allah’s attributes.
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We say that Allah has knowledge. However, humans also have knowledge. So are we making Allah similar to His creation? Of course not, How come you might ask? The answer is because God’s knowledge is not like ours (His is infinite and He doesn’t need to acquire it). Therefore, why don’t we remain consistent and say the rest regarding all of Allah’s attributes such as His Hand and Face?
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To know more about the inconsistency of those that take some of God’s attributes metaphorically please refer to the following articles.
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\u00a0<\/span><\/a>http:\/\/www.spubs.com\/sps\/sp.cfm?subsecID=AQD12&articleID=AQD120010&articlePages=1<\/strong><\/span><\/a>
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http:\/\/www.spubs.com\/sps\/sp.cfm?subsecID=AQD12&articleID=AQD120009&articlePages=1<\/strong><\/span><\/a>
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http:\/\/www.spubs.com\/sps\/sp.cfm?subsecID=AQD12&articleID=AQD120008&articlePages=1<\/strong><\/span><\/a>
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source:\u00a0http:\/\/www.call-to-monotheism.com\/rebuttal_to_sam_shamoun_s_article__where_is_allah_exactly_<\/strong>\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0<\/span><\/span><\/a>
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Agniveer states<\/span>
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10. Surate Shura 51 states that it is impossible for humans except through angels, through curtains and symbols that Allah talks to them.<\/em><\/strong>
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Now if Allah is within all humans, there should be a mechanism by which Allah talks to them. Why would omnipresent Allah use curtain, symbol or angels?<\/em><\/strong>
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Tafseer Husaini states explaining this Ayat that Allah talked to Muhammad between two curtains. One curtain was made of white pearls and other was embroidered with precious metals. This means Allah was also limited in space and within the curtains. Hence Islamic Allah is a small creature.<\/em><\/strong>
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\u00a0Response<\/strong>
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This is the ayah
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[026:051]<\/strong>\u00a0“Verily! We really hope that our Lord will forgive us our sins, as we are the first of the believers (in Moosa (Moses) and in the Monotheism which he has brought from Allah).”(Muhammad Al-Hilali & Muhsin Khan)
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\u00a0<\/strong>Now one can see what the author is saying and what the ayah actually is. Where does this ayah talk about Allah who is with in humans or talks to humans through curtains or angels?? I don’t know from where he is getting this material. This ayah doesn’t say a word about curtain or angels.
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And please what is this tafsir hussaini and who is its author , please mention and give source of this tafsir as this is the unknown text and no muslim likes to quote from an unclear , unknown reference which itself is not in accordance with Islamic rules and Islamic knowledge.
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Agniveer states<\/em><\/span>\u00a0<\/em><\/strong>
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Surate Nisa 64 states that Rasul (Muhammad) has come with true facts and hence he should be believed. Even Rasul has talked to Allah through curtain, symbols or angels. Thus there is a likelihood that Rasul has also been subject to confusion, since he did not directly witness Allah.<\/em><\/strong>
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And that Allah becomes a finite entity not already present within all humans including Rasul.<\/em><\/strong>
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\u00a0Response<\/strong>
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This is what the concerned ayah says;
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[004:064]<\/strong>\u00a0We sent no Messenger, but to be obeyed by Allah’s Leave. If they (hypocrites), when they had been unjust to themselves, had come to you (Muhammad SAW) and begged Allah’s Forgiveness, and the Messenger had begged forgiveness for them: indeed, they would have found Allah All-Forgiving (One Who accepts repentance), Most Merciful.(Muhammad Al-Hilali & Muhsin Khan)
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I don’t know what is he concluding from this ayah?? It is simply about those munafiqeen (hypocrites) or Specific Jew at the time of Prophet Peace be upon him (see commentary of Muhammad bin Jareer Tabree under this ayah).
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And who says ALLAH is in rasool s.a.w.w or in any human being? From where has the author learnt this regarding islam? Within humans, there is a soul, and no ALLAH.\u00a0The author(agniveer) needs to, first, clarify is basics of islam before writing and jumping into religious debates.<\/strong>
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Agniveer states<\/em><\/span>\u00a0<\/em>
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11. Surate Fazar 22 claims that Allah will come alongwith angels in a queue during doomsday. Now obviously this coming of Allah is physical. Because if this implies coming of Allah in hearts, how can he come in hearts of the sinners whose heart is still dirty? And if the hearts of sinners are purified, why send them to Hell?<\/em><\/strong>
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Further Ayats detail that Hell is on left side of Allah’s throne and Heaven on right side. Thus there is no doubt that the Allah of Quran is a finite sized person.<\/em><\/strong>
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Response<\/strong>
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This is Surah Al Fajr (not Fazar) ayah 22;
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[89:22]<\/strong>\u00a0And your Lord comes with the angels in rows.
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Tafsir of Jalalayn says:<\/strong><\/span>
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And your Lord, that is to say, His command, and the angels arrive rank on rank (saffan saffan is a circumstantial qualifier, meaning ‘standing in rows’ or ‘made up of many ranks’),
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So this is regarding his Command
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Tafsir Ibne Kathir says:<\/strong><\/span>
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(And your Lord comes) meaning, for the session of Judgment between His creatures. This is after they requested the best of the Sons of Adam \u2013 Muhammad(SAW) — to intercede with Allah. This will occur only after they have requested the other great Messengers, one after another. Yet, all of them will say, “I cannot do that for you.” This will continue until the beseeching of the men reaches Muhammad (SAW), and He will say, “I will do it, I will do it.” So He will go and seek to intercede with Allah as the session of Judgment will have come, and Allah will allow him to intercede for that (the Judgment). This will be the first of the intercessions, and it is the praiseworthy station that has already been discussed in Surat Subhan (Al-Isra’). So Allah will come for the session of Judgment\u00a0as He wills,\u00a0<\/strong>and the angels will also come, lined up in rows upon rows before Him.(end)
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The bottom line is Allah has power over all things and he will come as he wills and which suits His Majesty, We cannot match Him with His creation. agniveer states that\u00a0Further ayats detail that Hell is on left side of Allah’s throne and Heaven on right side.<\/strong>
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\u00a0<\/strong>Where does these ayahs say that? see ayah no: 20 to 30
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[089:020]<\/strong>\u00a0And you love wealth with much love!
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[089:021]<\/strong>\u00a0Nay! When the earth is ground to powder,
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[089:022]<\/strong>\u00a0And your Lord comes with the angels in rows,
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[089:023]<\/strong>\u00a0And Hell will be brought near that Day. On that Day will man remember, but how will that remembrance (then) avail him?
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[089:024]<\/strong>\u00a0He will say: “Alas! Would that I had sent forth (good deeds) for (this) my life!”
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[089:025]<\/strong>\u00a0So on that Day, none will punish as He will punish.
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[089:026]<\/strong>\u00a0And none will bind as He will bind.
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[089:027]\u00a0<\/strong>(It will be said to the pious): “O (you) the one in (complete) rest and satisfaction!
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[089:028]<\/strong>\u00a0“Come back to your Lord, Well-pleased (yourself) and well-pleasing unto Him!
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[089:029]<\/strong>\u00a0“Enter you, then, among My honoured slaves,
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[089:030]<\/strong>\u00a0“And enter you My Paradise!”\u00a0(Muhammad Al-Hilali & Muhsin Khan)
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Agniveer states<\/em><\/span>\u00a0<\/em><\/strong>
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12. Some may claim that these verses have deep meanings that we cannot understand. If that be so, then the entire purpose of sending Quran is futile. Because already there were so many messages of Allah present. What is the point of sending a last and final message that is so confusing and impossible for humans to understand in one birth?<\/em><\/strong>
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\u00a0Response<\/strong>
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Already replied above (smile), response of his accusations against Qu`ran is completed Alhumdulillah.
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Agniveer states<\/em><\/span>\u00a0<\/em>
\n<\/span><\/span>
\n<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

The concept of Ishwar in Vedas, the first text of humankind is significantly different. And that is why the Allah of Quran is not same as Ishwar of Vedas.<\/em><\/strong>
\n<\/span><\/p>\n

\u00a0Response<\/strong>
\n<\/span>
\n<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

He claimed that Vedas are first text of human kind which is nothing but a mere claim and even if true then we say it is corrupted. And author is asked to PROVE that Vedas are the first text of human kind. Hope in the next article author will prove this.
\n<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

3)\u00a0Replying Agniveer’s 7 points on the concept of God in Vedas\u00a0<\/span>(a) to (g).<\/strong><\/span>
\n<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

Agniveer states<\/em><\/span>\u00a0<\/em>
\n<\/span><\/span>
\n<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

a. Ishwar is omnipresent and shapeless. Refer Yajurved 40.8.<\/em><\/strong>
\n<\/span><\/p>\n

\u00a0First thing,Yajurved Samitha has two recessions\u00a0 1) Shukla Yajurved and 2) Krishna Yajurved, Krishna Yajurved is older one, Agniveer is giving refrence from Shukla Yajurved, he should mention this.<\/span>
\n<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

Proof about Ishwar not omnipresent and being in his heavenly house<\/strong><\/span>
\n<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

Rig Veda Mandal 8; Sukt 13; Mantra 2\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0 \u00a0 \u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0<\/span>
\n<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

In his expansive heavenly mansion, is the location of Ishwar, he who brings success,\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0<\/span>
\n<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

Most glorious, prompt to save, who wins the water-floods.<\/span>
\n<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

\"\"
\n<\/span>
\n<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

\u00a0\u00a0The sanskrit word used for heavenly location is VYOMAN SADNAY and swamiji says that “Ishwar vyapak bhavan mein stith hokar”.Now I will give you individual meaning of the hindi words.<\/span><\/span>
\n<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

\u0935\u094d\u092f\u093e\u092a\u0915<\/span> = expansive, broad, wide
\n<\/span>\u092d\u0935\u0928<\/span> = castle, mansion, premises, house, building
\n<\/span>\u0938\u094d\u0925\u093f\u0924<\/span> = located, situated, set, placed
\nnow if you want to say that verse say this then it will be contrary to this verse<\/span><\/span>
\n<\/span><\/p>\n

Now I will show you from your Veda that Ishwar has form and body<\/strong>. Also I will show you the deception of Swami Dayanand Saraswati when he left 12 words untranslated which said Ishwar has a body. I will also show you how Swamiji changes translation to suit is theological understanding that Ishwar is formless.
\nLet me first show you how Swamiji has consistently translated the sanskrit word AGNI as “Ishwar” or “parmeshwar” everywhere. I will give only 2 samples so that it doesn’t become too long. See the images below
\n<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

\"\"
\n<\/span><\/p>\n

\"\"
\n<\/span><\/p>\n

In both the above images Swamiji has translated AGNI as “Hey Parmeshwar” “O Ishwar” The references for the above images are: Yajur Veda Adhyay 1; Mantra 17 and 18<\/span>
\n<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

Now see the image below<\/span>
\n<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

\"\"
\n<\/span>
\n<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

Here Swamiji left 12 words untranslated. You know why? Read carefully what it says. You and Arya Samaj believe that Ishwar is Niraakaar (formless) but the Mantra was saying<\/span>
\n<\/span><\/p>\n

AGNI = Ishwar
\nTANU = embodied
\nASI = is\/has
\nIt is saying Ishwar has a form\/ body<\/span>
\n<\/span><\/p>\n

Let us move forward. There is another place in Yajur Veda where the same above words have been used. The very first Mantra of 5th Adhyay of Yajur Veda,i.e., Yajur Veda Adhyay 5; Mantra 1
\n<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

See the image below. Here fortunately Swamiji has not taken out words but unfortunately has mistranslated it. See below
\n<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

\"\"
\n<\/span><\/p>\n

Here Swamiji has broken his own rule. The same word Agni appears here also, but he mistranslated it as<\/strong>
\n<\/span>\u092c\u093f\u091c\u0941\u0932\u0940<\/span>
\n<\/span>\u092a\u094d\u0930\u0938\u093f\u0926\u094d\u0927<\/span>
\n<\/span>\u0930\u0942\u092a<\/span>
\n<\/span>\u0905\u0917\u094d\u0928\u093f<\/span>
\n<\/span>\u0915\u0947<\/span>
\n<\/span>\u0936\u0930\u0940\u0930<\/span>
\n<\/span>\u0938\u092e\u093e\u0928<\/span>
\n<\/span>\u0939\u0948<\/span>
\nwhile as the correct translation as per Swamijis own rules is.
\nAGNI = Ishwar
\nTANU = body<\/strong>\u00a0<\/span>\u0936\u0930\u0940\u0930<\/span>
\nASI = is\/has<\/strong>\u00a0<\/span>\u0939\u0948<\/span>
\n<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

So the Mantra is saying <\/span>\u092a\u0930\u092e\u0947\u0936\u094d\u0935\u0930<\/span>
\n<\/span>\u0936\u0930\u0940\u0930<\/span>
\n<\/span>\u0927\u093e\u0930\u0940<\/span>
\n<\/span>\u0939\u0948<\/span> “parmeshwar shareer dhaari hai”. Ishwar has a body\/form.
\n<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

you say Ishwar of Vedas is omnipresent and formless but The above evidence shows an opposite picture
\n<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

Agniveer states:<\/span>
\n<\/span><\/em><\/span>
\n<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

b. There is no throne of Ishwar because He is already present everywhere.<\/em><\/strong>
\n<\/span><\/p>\n

\u00a0Response:<\/strong><\/span><\/span>
\n<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

Rig\u00a0Veda mandal 10; sukt 129; mantra 9<\/span>
\n<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

“He, the first origin of this creation, whether he formed it all or did not form it,
\nWhose eye controls this world he in highest heaven, he verily knows it, or perhaps he knows not.”<\/strong><\/span>
\n<\/span><\/p>\n

\"\"
\n<\/span><\/p>\n

This is what ved says and agniveer is contradicting this statement\u00a0<\/span>
\n<\/span><\/p>\n

Agniveer states<\/span>
\n<\/span><\/em><\/span>
\n<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

c. Ishwar does not need to send messengers, angels, symbols or curtains to talk to humans. Ishwar communicates with all souls through inspiration. Whenever we do a right act, we get a feeling of satisfaction, enthusiasm or bliss. When we do something wrong, we get a feeling of fear, doubt or shame. This is the way Ishwar communicates with all souls.<\/em><\/strong>
\n<\/span><\/p>\n

\u00a0Response:<\/strong>
\n<\/span>
\n<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

This is mere statement of agniveer who is not authority, even if this is true then he said Ishwar communicates will all souls, then tell us how many hindus and christians and Muslims and atheists and all others communicated with God?? And he said (Whenever we do a right act, we get a feeling of satisfaction, enthusiasm or bliss. When we do something wrong, we get a feeling of fear, doubt or shame.) Tell us who is to decide what is right and what is wrong?? Maybe for me what is right is wrong for you and what is right for you are wrong for me, for example some people tease others and according to them it is right to tease but according to some people teasing is not right thing, who is to decide that what is wrong and what is right?? By your logic people will understand that god told teaser through inspiration that teasing is right and same God told the one who is against teaser that Teasing is wrong<\/span>
\n<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

Regarding your objection to using the angel as medium of communication. This is God’s prerogative. He can choose whatever way He sees fit and doesn’t need counsel from you. He is the Most Wise and your shortsightedness stands nowhere before God’s knowledge and Wisdom.
\nNowhere did Muslims ever say that God talks as we humans talk. God communicates in our human language coz that is the only language we understand.<\/span>
\n<\/span><\/p>\n

In Islam Allah knows everything but is separate from the creation and above His creation. He is not the creation. Thus your conception is incorrect since you claim that God is in you and me. Let me correct your fallacies. All creatures do not have eyes and ears. So do you mean they do not know their surroundings? Many creatures use so many diverse methods of communication. Human talking is only one form of communication. If you say God communicates, then I would ask you that are you not ascribing animal qualities to God, since animals, insects, etc communicate as well?
\n<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

I hope you realize the fallacies of your arguments and come to the truth of Islam.
\n<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

Agniveer states:<\/span>
\n<\/span><\/em><\/span>
\n<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

d. Those in direction of Ishwar follow this language of Ishwar and develop mastery over the tendencies of their minds. Thus the signals of Ishwar become clearer and clearer. In perfect form, the knowledge of Vedas is revealed. In reality the Vedas are already within us. However through efforts, we have to get rid of ignorance to illuminate the Vedas.<\/em><\/strong>
\n<\/span><\/p>\n

\u00a0Response:<\/strong>
\n<\/span><\/span>
\n<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

This is a lie that Vedas are within us, ask any one he will never say ved is in me, at least Vedas is not within me, 2ndly he atleast agreed God of ved has direction and there is also language of Ishwar.<\/span>
\n<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

The problem with Hinduism is that you philosophize everything, which ultimately is harmful for you. Islam is simply revelation based and we do not philosophize coz we do not need to. Islam is simple and easy to understand unlike the philosophical conundrums of Hinduism.<\/span>
\n<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

Agniveer states<\/span>
\n<\/span><\/em><\/span>
\n<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

e. There is no heaven or hell as per Vedas. He neither punishes or rewards in Islamic sense. He simply creates opportunities for soul for its further progress as per the tendencies of mind which are further determined by our thoughts, words and actions.<\/em><\/strong>
\n<\/span><\/p>\n

\u00a0Response\u00a0\u00a0<\/strong>
\n<\/span><\/span>
\n<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

Paradise ‘Swarga’ in the Vedas:<\/strong>
\n1<\/strong>. ‘Swarg’ i.e. Paradise, is described in several places in the Vedas including: “May all these streams of butter, with their banks of honey, flowing with distilled water, and milk and curds and water reach thee in domestic life enhancing thy pleasure. May thou acquire completely these things strengthening the soul in diverse ways. Having pools of clarified butter, stocks of sweet honey, and having exhilarating drinks for water, full of milk and curds, may all these streams flow to us in the world of happiness swelling sweetly. May our lakes full of lotuses be situated near us.”\u00a0(Atharva Ved: 4: 34: 6)
\n<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

\"\"
\n<\/span><\/p>\n

2.\u00a0<\/strong>“Bereft of physical bodies, pure, cleansed with the wind, brilliant, they go to a brilliant world. The fire does not cause burning in their male organ. In the world of happiness they get plenty of women.\u00a0(Atharva Ved: 4: 34: 2)
\n<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

\"\"
\n<\/span><\/p>\n

Your statement is contrary to vedas itself how much lie will you say
\nIf there is no heaven and hell no reward and punishment then it is good for Rapist and lairs and theif and all others, Hitler killed millions of people no punishment for him, on the other hand Their is true concept of punishment and rewards after death and Allah can punish bad people not once but millions of times.
\n<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

Agniveer states<\/em><\/span>\u00a0<\/em>
\n<\/span><\/span>
\n<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

f. Vedas do not believe that Ishwar suddenly created souls. Vedas state that the soul, nature and Ishwar are eternal and always present. And thus creation of universe, its maintenance and destruction are natural eternal properties of Ishwar. Hence the allegation of whimsicalness, moodiness etc do not come on Ishwar.<\/em><\/strong>
\n<\/span><\/p>\n

\u00a0Response:<\/strong>
\n<\/span><\/span>
\n<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

He should provide refrences not just mere statements, what reply we can give to him who is not even authority?? he said soul and ishwar are always present, then where is his soul?? is it present with me?? of where are souls of all hindus?? all are present?? This is very weired concept<\/span>
\n<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

about moodiness see this<\/span>
\n<\/span><\/p>\n

Proof about Ishwar’s anger<\/strong>
\n
\n<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

Atharva Veda kand 11; sukt 2; Mantra 20.
\n“Injure us not, interpose for us, spare us, be not angry with us! Let us not contend with thee!”
\n<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

\u00a0\"\"
\n<\/span><\/p>\n

Agniveer states<\/span>
\n<\/span><\/em><\/span>
\n<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

g. More importantly, since Ishwar is perfect, there is no need for Him to keep sending new amendments of his message every now and then. He simply communicates the eternal Vedas during inception of civilization and then continues to guide us through inspiration, as discussed above.<\/em><\/strong>
\n<\/span><\/p>\n

\u00a0Response<\/strong>
\n<\/span>
\n<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

Allah never changed the basic rule that is THERE IS NO ILAH(WORTHY OF WORSHIP) EXCEPT ALLAH, but he changed minor rules for example at the time of Adam peace be upon him marraige between brother and sister was allowed but in Shariyah of Muhammad peace be upon him it is Prohibited.
\n<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

\u00a02ndly if Ved is perfect then it says<\/strong>
\n<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

\u00a0\"\"<\/strong>
\n<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

besides the above reference showing you that Ishwar is not everywhere, it also is a question for you. This verse is confused about who created the creation and whether Ishwar knows all or not. So this verse is in an agnostic tone. coz this verse is not sure if Ishwar knows all or not.<\/span>
\n<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

is this ishwar PERFECT<\/strong><\/span>
\n<\/span><\/p>\n

Agniveer states<\/span>
\n<\/span><\/em><\/span>
\n<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

It seems that Muhammad wanted to convey this true nature of Ishwar, to best of his limited abilities crippled by his lack of education and epileptic disorder. However, due to conspiracy of his close mates, and his own ignorance to some extent, a defective quran was propagated after his death.<\/em><\/strong>
\n<\/span><\/p>\n

\u00a0Response<\/strong>
\n<\/span>
\n<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

This is again a mere claim and lie from agniveer, I already provided the link of The Compilation of the Quran in this article above see that again.
\n<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

Agniveer states<\/span>
\n<\/span><\/em><\/span>
\n<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

Thus there are two Allah in Islam. One Allah is that of the Vedas and other is the limited defective Allah as explained above.<\/em><\/strong>
\n<\/span><\/p>\n

\u00a0Response<\/strong>
\n<\/span>
\n<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

Qur`an says in Surah Ikhlas 112:1-4
\n
\n<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

Say: He is Allah, the One and Only! Allah, the Eternal, Absolute; He begetteth not nor is He begotten. And there is none like unto Him.
\n<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

\u00a0So Allah is only one and he is not defective in any way Alhumdulillah.
\n<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

.
\n<\/span><\/p>\n

Agniveer states<\/em><\/span>\u00a0<\/em>
\n<\/span><\/span>
\n<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

Muslims would serve the true cause of Allah if they reject the defective Allah and embrace the true Ishwar of Vedas who is omnipresent, omnipotent and unchangeable.<\/em><\/strong>
\n<\/span><\/p>\n

\u00a0Response:<\/strong>
\n<\/span>
\n<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

Muslims and those who have little intellect will never accept the God who has many, many arms, bellies, mouths and eyes in his body as explained above from hindu texts. Allah is only one and Allah is your lord, our lord and lord of all the worlds their is no Ilah accept Allah.
\n<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

\u00a0MAY ALLAH SAVE US FROM DECIEVING AMEEN
\n<\/span><\/p>\n

Conclusion:\u00a0<\/strong><\/span>
\n<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

Agniveer lied in whole of his article even in hinduism he don’t know the true concept of God.<\/strong><\/span>
\n<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n

\u00a0FOR MORE REFRENCE SEE THIS<\/span><\/p>\n

http:\/\/truthofhinduism.com\/rebuttals\/vedas-deep-analysis-on-basis-of-dayanand-ji-teaching\/<\/span><\/a><\/p>\n

http:\/\/truthofhinduism.com\/general\/vedas-are-not-eternal-a-detailed-analysis\/<\/span><\/a><\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

Written by Muhammad Salman Article by Brothers Mushafiq Sultan & Asim ul Haq Proof reading by Sister Noor ul Huda Assalamualaikum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barkatahu (May Peace, Blessings & Mercy of Allah Be Upon You) This Article is in reply to the article in Anti Islamic website agniveer.com with title,\u00a0Allah \u2013 Shapeless or Limited?\u00a0Article is …<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":2,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[7],"tags":[8],"class_list":["post-583","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-religion","tag-agniveer"],"yoast_head":"\nRebuttal to Agniveer: Allah Shapeless or Limited - VedKaBhed.Com<\/title>\n<meta name=\"robots\" content=\"index, follow, max-snippet:-1, max-image-preview:large, max-video-preview:-1\" \/>\n<link rel=\"canonical\" href=\"https:\/\/vedkabhed.com\/index.php\/2015\/06\/23\/rebuttal-to-agniveer-allah-shapeless-or-limited\/\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:locale\" content=\"en_US\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:type\" content=\"article\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:title\" content=\"Rebuttal to Agniveer: Allah Shapeless or Limited - 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